Bipartisan Senate delegation traveled to Kyiv to meet Ukraine's leadership

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Bipartisan Senate delegation¹ traveled to Kyiv to meet Ukraine's leadership

Transcript²

NPR's A Martinez speaks with Democratic Sen. Chris Murphy of Connecticut about his recent trip to Ukraine as part of a bipartisan delegation of senators, and what he learned.

A MARTINEZ, HOST:

Earlier this week, a bipartisan Senate delegation traveled to Kyiv to meet with Ukrainian leadership, including President Volodymyr Zelenskyy. Democratic Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut was part of the delegation. He joins us now. Welcome, Senator.

CHRIS MURPHY: Thanks for having me.

MARTINEZ: Now, President Biden spoke³ yesterday about the possibility of what he called a minor⁴ incursion by Russia. You've been on the ground in Ukraine. Is that in line with what you anticipate?

MURPHY: I think, right now, we don't know what Vladimir Putin is going to do. It may be that he ends up using what we call asymmetric⁵ warfare⁶ tactics. It may be that he continues to engage in cyberattacks, for instance, or massive misinformation campaigns. And if that's the case, we have to have a proportional response. But I was glad that the president was crystal clear yesterday publicly. He said the same thing to me privately⁷ yesterday, that if there is a Russian military incursion in Ukraine, there's going to be a significant response from the United States and our allies, crushing sanctions on Russia that will devastate⁸ their economy.

I think what I saw in Ukraine is a Ukrainian people that are ready for the long haul. It's true the Russian military is much stronger than the Ukrainian military. But the Ukrainian military is in fighting shape. And there's the possibility - I think, likelihood - of a long-term citizen insurgency⁹, like what the Russians faced in Afghanistan in 1980. That will deal a pretty significant blow in the long term...

MARTINEZ: Senator, you mentioned proportional response. If the response from Russia is troops, why wouldn't proportional response from the U.S. and its allies be troops themselves?

MURPHY: Well, Ukraine is not a NATO ally. And to put the kind of U.S. force inside Ukraine necessary to defend it against a Russian invasion, frankly¹⁰, would involve years and years of preparation. And so I don't know that the American people would support sending hundreds of thousands of U.S. troops into Ukraine. But they would support and they do support significant military and economic assistance to allow Ukraine to fight for itself, I think. You know, Joe Biden's simply reading the American people about where they're willing to send American soldiers to fight and die. But I think Americans are willing to do everything short of that to help Ukraine.

MARTINEZ: Now, the U.S. has threatened crippling sanctions to deter¹¹ Russia from invading Ukraine. But Europe isn't on board yet. Senator, what's the way forward if everyone isn't on board?

MURPHY: I think it has been a struggle to get Europe to sort of see the intelligence we see. I think there are some in Europe that, frankly, don't believe Russia is actually going to go through with this. But they're coming along. And I think President Biden has been pretty successful in developing this set of sanctions that will be significant and serious. Listen, Russia's short-term goal may be to try to get Ukraine back in its orbit. But Russia's long-term goal is to splinter NATO, to smash NATO. So Biden has these two goals, right? He's got to try to deter Russia from coming into Ukraine. But he can't let the invasion of Ukraine split apart the United States from Europe. That's why he's got to try to keep the U.S. and Europe, keep NATO together on this sanctions package. That's a sort of very fine, difficult line to walk. But I think so far, he's done a good job.

MARTINEZ: But if sanctions are maybe the preferred option here, why did you and many of your colleagues vote against sanctions on Russia's Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline¹²?

MURPHY: So this was an effort by Senator Cruz last week - two weeks ago now - to break the United States from our European allies. In fact, this was a bill about sanctions on a series of German entities¹³ that are participating in the construction of a pipeline from Russia into Europe. We just did not believe, as the Biden administration didn't believe, that it was smart to have sanctions on Germany in a moment when we needed them...

MARTINEZ: But it would still hurt Russia, though, right? It would still hurt Russia, though, to have those sanctions.

MURPHY: Well, it would hurt Germany much more in that these sanctions would be easily sort of run around by Russia. Russia, probably within weeks or months, could have found a way to get around these sanctions and start rebuilding the pipeline. The Germans have, of course, decided¹⁴ to stop the pipeline. They finally have gotten in alliance with U.S. policy. So it would just be a curious thing to sanction German companies and German individuals right after the German government paused the pipeline. This was an effort by Senator Cruz to try to do the work of the former president, who was trying to split apart the United States from Europe. And ultimately, there will be Republicans and Democrats¹⁵ coming together...

MARTINEZ: But it had...

MURPHY: ...Around sanctions against Russia.

MARTINEZ: It had a majority, though. I mean, 55-44 is what it fell short. It needed 60 votes. You had Raphael Warnock, Mark Kelly. Democratic senators had bipartisan support. So I mean, if - you know, I read your tweet that you said that the U.S. needs to send a clear signal that it's committed to Ukrainian sovereignty. I mean, what kind of a signal does it send to Ukraine that a bill with bipartisan support and a majority of U.S. senators winds up not happening?

MURPHY: Well, that's why we went to Ukraine, this big, bipartisan delegation. Both Republicans and Democrats said, listen, we were divided on this very narrow question of whether we should sanction a handful of German entities related to this pipeline. But Republicans and Democrats are not divided on the question of whether we will continue to send lethal¹⁶ arms to Ukraine and whether we will support sanctions against Russia if Russia invades. So that was the reason that we went. That's the reason the conservative Republicans and progressive Democrats went to Ukraine last week, to show that notwithstanding this fairly narrow disagreement, on 95% of U.S. policy towards Ukraine and Russia, there will be no division.

MARTINEZ: But if Russia invades, if that's what it takes to get sanctions, then Russia has invaded. And who knows what happens as a result?

MURPHY: Well, again...

MARTINEZ: The cat's out of the bag at that point, wouldn't it be, Senator?

MURPHY: Well, the point is that the parties are united on this question of whether we are going to support a crushing set of sanctions if Russia decides to invade through a conventional military invasion. And remember, it's also worth noting that President Biden sanctioned Russia for the Nord Stream 2 pipeline. It was only these narrow sanctions on Germany that were in question. I think Russia's gotten the message. And part of that message is that Nord Stream 2, that pipeline is not going to go forward if they proceed with an invasion. This is a commitment that we believe the Germans have made and has been translated to Russia. So hopefully, Putin is beginning to see the full weight of consequences - the consequences to his army through a long-term Ukrainian insurgency and the consequences to his economy - so that he can make the right decision here. Listen, he...

MARTINEZ: But that's not a done deal, Senator. I mean, they said - Germany said they may stop the pipeline from bringing gas to Germany. So it's not a done deal that they are going to stop it.

MURPHY: I'm confident that the Germans will not go forward with the pipeline if Russia invades. This is a pretty sensitive topic in sort of internal German politics. But I'm confident that that pipeline will not happen if Russia invades.

MARTINEZ: That's U.S. Senator Chris Murphy from Connecticut. Senator, thanks a lot.

MURPHY: Thanks a lot.

(SOUNDBITE OF ROBOHANDS' "LOST")

1 delegation   

n.代表团；派遣

参考例句：

• The statement of our delegation was singularly appropriate to the occasion.我们代表团的声明非常适合时宜。
• We shall inform you of the date of the delegation's arrival.我们将把代表团到达的日期通知你。

2 transcript   

n.抄本，誊本，副本，肄业证书

参考例句：

• A transcript of the tapes was presented as evidence in court.一份录音带的文字本作为证据被呈交法庭。
• They wouldn't let me have a transcript of the interview.他们拒绝给我一份采访的文字整理稿。

3 spoke   

n.（车轮的）辐条；轮辐；破坏某人的计划；阻挠某人的行动 v.讲，谈（speak的过去式）；说；演说；从某种观点来说

参考例句：

• They sourced the spoke nuts from our company.他们的轮辐螺帽是从我们公司获得的。
• The spokes of a wheel are the bars that connect the outer ring to the centre.辐条是轮子上连接外圈与中心的条棒。

4 minor   

adj.较小(少)的，较次要的；n.辅修学科；vi.辅修

参考例句：

• The young actor was given a minor part in the new play.年轻的男演员在这出新戏里被分派担任一个小角色。
• I gave him a minor share of my wealth.我把小部分财产给了他。

5 asymmetric   

a.不对称的

参考例句：

• Most people's faces are asymmetric. 大多数人的脸不对称。
• We have made no reference to asymmetric carbon atoms. 我们未曾涉及不对称碳原子。

6 warfare   

n.战争(状态)；斗争；冲突

参考例句：

• He addressed the audience on the subject of atomic warfare.他向听众演讲有关原子战争的问题。
• Their struggle consists mainly in peasant guerrilla warfare.他们的斗争主要是农民游击战。

7 privately   

adv.以私人的身份，悄悄地，私下地

参考例句：

• Some ministers admit privately that unemployment could continue to rise.一些部长私下承认失业率可能继续升高。
• The man privately admits that his motive is profits.那人私下承认他的动机是为了牟利。

8 devastate   

v.使荒芜，破坏，压倒

参考例句：

• A few days before,a fire had devastated large parts of Windsor Castle.几天前，温莎城堡的大部分被一场大火烧毁。
• Earthquakes can also cause tsunamis,which devastate coastal regions.地震还引发海啸，它直接破坏海岸地区。

9 insurgency   

n.起义；暴动；叛变

参考例句：

• And as in China, unrest and even insurgency are widespread. 而在中国，动乱甚至暴乱都普遍存在。 来自互联网
• Dr Zyphur is part an insurgency against this idea. 塞弗博士是这一观点逆流的一部分。 来自互联网

10 frankly   

adv.坦白地，直率地；坦率地说

参考例句：

• To speak frankly, I don't like the idea at all.老实说，我一点也不赞成这个主意。
• Frankly speaking, I'm not opposed to reform.坦率地说，我不反对改革。

11 deter   

vt.阻止，使不敢，吓住

参考例句：

• Failure did not deter us from trying it again.失败并没有能阻挡我们再次进行试验。
• Dogs can deter unwelcome intruders.狗能够阻拦不受欢迎的闯入者。

12 pipeline   

n.管道，管线

参考例句：

• The pipeline supplies Jordan with 15 per cent of its crude oil.该管道供给约旦15%的原油。
• A single pipeline serves all the houses with water.一条单管路给所有的房子供水。

13 entities   

实体对像； 实体，独立存在体，实际存在物( entity的名词复数 )

参考例句：

• Our newspaper and our printing business form separate corporate entities. 我们的报纸和印刷业形成相对独立的企业实体。
• The North American continent is made up of three great structural entities. 北美大陆是由三个构造单元组成的。

14 decided   

adj.决定了的，坚决的；明显的，明确的

参考例句：

• This gave them a decided advantage over their opponents.这使他们比对手具有明显的优势。
• There is a decided difference between British and Chinese way of greeting.英国人和中国人打招呼的方式有很明显的区别。

15 democrats   

n.民主主义者，民主人士( democrat的名词复数 )

参考例句：

• The Democrats held a pep rally on Capitol Hill yesterday. 民主党昨天在国会山召开了竞选誓师大会。
• The democrats organize a filibuster in the senate. 民主党党员组织了阻挠议事。 来自《简明英汉词典》

16 lethal   

adj.致死的；毁灭性的

参考例句：

• A hammer can be a lethal weapon.铁锤可以是致命的武器。
• She took a lethal amount of poison and died.她服了致命剂量的毒药死了。