美国国家公共电台 NPR--'The Persuaders' examines the front line fight for hearts, minds and democracy

'The Persuaders' examines the front line fight for hearts, minds and democracy

Transcript¹

Author Anand Giridharadas speaks with NPR's Steve Inskeep about The Persuaders, his new account of Americans fighting for democracy.

STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:

The writer Anand Giridharadas says he needed to persuade himself that there's still some point in persuasion².

ANAND GIRIDHARADAS: I think if you look at our political debate, it's so easy to be fatalistic, for good reason. It just feels like people are immovable.

INSKEEP: Giridharadas is a journalist with definite political views. One of his books was about inequality - how wealthy elites³ lock in their gains. Now he's writing about how to change the system, which means changing minds, even when it doesn't seem worth the effort.

GIRIDHARADAS: What became very clear to me, also, is that this kind of contempt and writing each other off is also the road to civil war and the road to political violence. Because once you give up on the idea that you can change minds, you're kind of giving up on the idea of democracy.

INSKEEP: His book "The Persuaders" profiles people who have not given up. They're activists⁴ on the political left who recognize that if they're going to prevail in a democracy, they need to build political support.

GIRIDHARADAS: The most powerful example for me was this movement called deep canvassing⁵, going door to door in Arizona to change minds on immigration. Arizona is one of the fastest browning states in this country - going through enormous demographic change faster than the country on average. And instead of spending three minutes and giving someone a flyer, you try to spend 30 or 40 minutes at one door talking to people and listening to them, more importantly, about why they feel the way they do. And, Steve, this is so counterintuitive for our culture today - right? - because we live in a culture in which you feel like you're supposed to call people out for saying all kinds of terrible things.

And what these canvassers do - they stand there and they listen. And then, having built a certain rapport⁶ of trust and relationship, they try to say, hey, but do you know any immigrants? Do the immigrants you know square with the view you gave me at the beginning? Or have you ever felt scorned and shut out because of factors beyond your control? People have epiphanies at the door. This is something I didn't think was possible, but I saw it happen.

INSKEEP: Would the left actually do better to change some of its program in order to have a broader coalition⁷?

GIRIDHARADAS: That's kind of what the Democratic Party has done for a very, very long time. The problem with this approach is that it doesn't necessarily win over converts from the middle, and it certainly leaves your base cold. And what a lot of the persuaders I'm writing about - what they're essentially⁸ suggesting is flipping⁹ this model on its head. They're arguing for a version of persuasion from the left that is about standing¹⁰ bravely and committedly in your aspirations¹¹ and your demands, fighting for a - an ambitious version of your values and, at the same time, reaching out through how you communicate it, how you sell it, the frames you're willing to use - making a Christian¹² case for environmental stewardship¹³, you know, maybe naming something like Medicare for All Freedom Care to actually play into deeply held values that Americans across the political spectrum¹⁴ have.

INSKEEP: The activists Giridharadas interviewed included a woman who worked in Kenosha, Wis., in 2020.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)

ARI SHAPIRO: More protests are expected tonight in Kenosha, south of Milwaukee. Yesterday, police there shot a Black man named Jacob Blake.

INSKEEP: Violent protests followed the police shooting. Giridharadas says amid the chaos¹⁵, activists tried to come up with messages that went beyond protest against injustice¹⁶.

GIRIDHARADAS: A wonderful group in Kenosha called BLAK, B-L-A-K, developed this way of talking about what they were for, and they threw a rally called Justice for Jacob. After an initial rally mourning, the second rally was a celebration of his life. There was barbecues. There was voter registration¹⁷. There was a bouncy castle. And a beautiful video went viral around the internet. It's much better to say what you are for, to show what you are for and show that the kind of world you want is more appealing than the world being offered by the other side.

INSKEEP: But you follow up on a particular example here. Joe Biden, who was then, of course, a presidential candidate, cut an ad around the violent protests in Kenosha in which Joe Biden said violent protest is itself bad.

(SOUNDBITE OF POLITICAL AD)

JOE BIDEN: I want to make it absolutely clear. Rioting is not protesting. Looting is not protesting.

INSKEEP: Your activists felt that was a terrible thing for Joe Biden to say. Why?

GIRIDHARADAS: I think one of the most profound lessons I learned from Anat Shenker-Osorio was that you - we often pay attention to what we are saying in a conversation or a debate, but we are often blind to what conversation we have chosen to have, right? So if someone says to me, immigrants are animals, and I counter, immigrants are not animals, I'm correct that immigrants are not animals. Problem is, I have now gotten into a conversation about the animal-ness (ph) of immigrants. That's the wrong conversation for me to be having.

INSKEEP: Let me concede your point that if you respond all the time to the person who says the outrageous¹⁸ thing, you're fighting on their turf, and you may lose the argument just by even having the argument. But in this specific example, you have Joe Biden, who is a Democratic leader, wanting to appeal to a broad coalition of people and concludes that people of all races and income strata¹⁹ and everything else probably do not want shops destroyed and downtowns destroyed. And he stands against that. And he concludes that most people would like to have police protection and that defund the police is a very bad slogan. Why was that such bad politics for him to say those things?

GIRIDHARADAS: I don't think anybody was saying he should have said defund the police. And I'm not sure that Anat or anybody else would say there's no way to talk about rioting.

INSKEEP: But she did say he should not have done this ad condemning²⁰ rioting.

GIRIDHARADAS: The ad was - the thesis of the ad was condemning rioting, right? Like, the - and the problem is what you do is you demoralize your own base because now it seems to your own base, which, in Joe Biden's case, was Black voters - you signal to your base that you are equating²¹ protests against injustice with the injustice itself. And there's just a lot of research that that just demoralizes your most passionate²² supporters. Once you talk, instead, about what is a world in which all of us can thrive - right? - Republicans may have a tougher time competing on that turf. And there may be a way to say things about riots or things about nonviolent protest. But I think lecturing people about law and order in that moment, which has happened so often with Democrats²³, feels like an insecure kind of grasp for the white moderate vote in a way that often doesn't succeed at wooing it and alienates²⁴ people of color.

INSKEEP: The latest book by Anand Giridharadas is "The Persuaders: At The Front Lines Of The Fight For Hearts, Minds, And Democracy." Thanks so much.

GIRIDHARADAS: Thank you, Steve.

(SOUNDBITE OF RJD2'S "MONSTERS UNDER MY BED (INSTRUMENTAL VERSION)")

1 transcript   

n.抄本，誊本，副本，肄业证书

参考例句：

• A transcript of the tapes was presented as evidence in court.一份录音带的文字本作为证据被呈交法庭。
• They wouldn't let me have a transcript of the interview.他们拒绝给我一份采访的文字整理稿。

2 persuasion   

n.劝说；说服；持有某种信仰的宗派

参考例句：

• He decided to leave only after much persuasion.经过多方劝说，他才决定离开。
• After a lot of persuasion,she agreed to go.经过多次劝说后，她同意去了。

3 elites   

精华( elite的名词复数 )； 精锐； 上层集团； （统称）掌权人物

参考例句：

• The elites are by their nature a factor contributing to underdevelopment. 这些上层人物天生是助长欠发达的因素。
• Elites always detest gifted and nimble outsiders. 社会名流对天赋聪明、多才多艺的局外人一向嫌恶。

4 activists   

n.（政治活动的）积极分子，活动家( activist的名词复数 )

参考例句：

• His research work was attacked by animal rights activists . 他的研究受到了动物权益维护者的抨击。
• Party activists with lower middle class pedigrees are numerous. 党的激进分子中有很多出身于中产阶级下层。 来自《简明英汉词典》

5 canvassing   

v.（在政治方面）游说( canvass的现在分词 )；调查（如选举前选民的）意见；为讨论而提出（意见等）；详细检查

参考例句：

• He spent the whole month canvassing for votes. 他花了整整一个月四处游说拉选票。
• I'm canvassing for the Conservative Party. 我在为保守党拉选票。 来自辞典例句

6 rapport   

n.和睦，意见一致

参考例句：

• She has an excellent rapport with her staff.她跟她职员的关系非常融洽。
• We developed a high degree of trust and a considerable personal rapport.我们发展了高度的互相信任和不错的私人融洽关系。

7 coalition   

n.结合体，同盟，结合，联合

参考例句：

• The several parties formed a coalition.这几个政党组成了政治联盟。
• Coalition forces take great care to avoid civilian casualties.联盟军队竭尽全力避免造成平民伤亡。

8 essentially   

adv.本质上，实质上，基本上

参考例句：

• Really great men are essentially modest.真正的伟人大都很谦虚。
• She is an essentially selfish person.她本质上是个自私自利的人。

9 flipping   

讨厌之极的

参考例句：

• I hate this flipping hotel! 我讨厌这个该死的旅馆！
• Don't go flipping your lid. 别发火。

10 standing   

n.持续，地位；adj.永久的，不动的，直立的，不流动的

参考例句：

• After the earthquake only a few houses were left standing.地震过后只有几幢房屋还立着。
• They're standing out against any change in the law.他们坚决反对对法律做任何修改。

11 aspirations   

强烈的愿望( aspiration的名词复数 )； 志向； 发送气音； 发 h 音

参考例句：

• I didn't realize you had political aspirations. 我没有意识到你有政治上的抱负。
• The new treaty embodies the aspirations of most nonaligned countries. 新条约体现了大多数不结盟国家的愿望。

12 Christian   

adj.基督教徒的；n.基督教徒

参考例句：

• They always addressed each other by their Christian name.他们总是以教名互相称呼。
• His mother is a sincere Christian.他母亲是个虔诚的基督教徒。

13 stewardship   

n. n. 管理工作；管事人的职位及职责

参考例句：

• The organization certainly prospered under his stewardship. 不可否认，这个组织在他的管理下兴旺了起来。
• Last, but certainly not least, are the issues of stewardship and ethics. 最后，但当然不是微不足道的，是工作和道德规范的问题。

14 spectrum   

n.谱，光谱，频谱；范围，幅度，系列

参考例句：

• This is a kind of atomic spectrum.这是一种原子光谱。
• We have known much of the constitution of the solar spectrum.关于太阳光谱的构成，我们已了解不少。

15 chaos   

n.混乱，无秩序

参考例句：

• After the failure of electricity supply the city was in chaos.停电后，城市一片混乱。
• The typhoon left chaos behind it.台风后一片混乱。

16 injustice   

n.非正义，不公正，不公平，侵犯（别人的）权利

参考例句：

• They complained of injustice in the way they had been treated.他们抱怨受到不公平的对待。
• All his life he has been struggling against injustice.他一生都在与不公正现象作斗争。

17 registration   

n.登记，注册，挂号

参考例句：

• Marriage without registration is not recognized by law.法律不承认未登记的婚姻。
• What's your registration number?你挂的是几号？

18 outrageous   

adj.无理的，令人不能容忍的

参考例句：

• Her outrageous behaviour at the party offended everyone.她在聚会上的无礼行为触怒了每一个人。
• Charges for local telephone calls are particularly outrageous.本地电话资费贵得出奇。

19 strata   

n.地层（复数）；社会阶层

参考例句：

• The older strata gradually disintegrate.较老的岩层渐渐风化。
• They represent all social strata.他们代表各个社会阶层。

20 condemning   

v.（通常因道义上的原因而）谴责( condemn的现在分词 )；宣判；宣布…不能使用；迫使…陷于不幸的境地

参考例句：

• The government issued a statement condemning the killings. 政府发表声明谴责这些凶杀事件。
• I concur with the speaker in condemning what has been done. 我同意发言者对所做的事加以谴责。 来自《现代英汉综合大词典》

21 equating   

v.认为某事物（与另一事物）相等或相仿( equate的现在分词 )；相当于；等于；把（一事物） 和（另一事物）等同看待

参考例句：

• [ Ray ] I definitely started equating crossword puzzles with songwriting. 我已经干脆开始把字谜游戏等同于歌曲写作了。 来自电影对白
• But they have a hard time equating plural marriage with those evils. 但是他们很难把这种多妻婚姻与上面说的那些坏事联系起来。 来自互联网

22 passionate   

adj.热情的，热烈的，激昂的，易动情的，易怒的，性情暴躁的

参考例句：

• He is said to be the most passionate man.据说他是最有激情的人。
• He is very passionate about the project.他对那个项目非常热心。

23 democrats   

n.民主主义者，民主人士( democrat的名词复数 )

参考例句：

• The Democrats held a pep rally on Capitol Hill yesterday. 民主党昨天在国会山召开了竞选誓师大会。
• The democrats organize a filibuster in the senate. 民主党党员组织了阻挠议事。 来自《简明英汉词典》

24 alienates   

v.使疏远( alienate的第三人称单数 )；使不友好；转让；让渡（财产等）

参考例句：

• The new teacher alienates the children by behaving prissily. 这位新老师因表现拘谨而疏远了学生。 来自互联网
• What alienates him from the house? 什么东西使他远离这所房子呢？ 来自互联网