The U.S. insists that Russia should be held accountable for war crimes

The U.S. insists that Russia should be held accountable for war crimes

Transcript¹

NPR's A Martinez talks to White House deputy national security adviser² Jon Finer about options available to the U.S. and its allies for holding Russia responsible for alleged³ war crimes.

A MARTINEZ, HOST:

Today, the U.N. Security Council meets to discuss mounting evidence of possible war crimes committed against civilians⁴ by Russian troops in Ukraine. Some of the latest suspected proof's seen in the city of Bucha, about 90 minutes outside the capital, Kyiv. Photos of bodies on the streets there have now been widely viewed. Ukraine's president, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, is scheduled to address U.N. Security Council members.

Here to talk about the options available to the council in the U.S. and also the larger global community, we're joined now by White House principal deputy national security adviser Jon Finer. Welcome to the show.

JON FINER: Thanks for having me.

MARTINEZ: President Biden yesterday called for Russia's President Vladimir Putin to stand trial for war crimes. But since neither the U.S., Ukraine or Russia are members of the International Criminal Court, how does he expect to bring Putin to justice?

FINER: So that's an issue that the United States is going to be consulting on and discussing very closely with our partners and allies, including fellow members of the Security Council. As you say, the ICC may be a challenging option - the International Criminal Court - because of the jurisdictional⁵ and membership issues you mentioned. Russia is a member of the Security Council, which means it has a veto over Security Council actions, making steps there challenging. But there are a number of other legal and international mechanisms⁶ that have been made available in situations like this in the past. And the United States and our partners and allies are going to really work through this and find out and determine what mechanisms are going to be available because accountability is going to be critically important, given the atrocities⁷ and the horrific crimes that we are seeing unfold in Ukraine right now.

MARTINEZ: So that isn't the only option. There are other avenues the U.S. can go to.

FINER: Absolutely. There have been a number of different tribunals and mechanisms established in similar conflicts in the past and some models that the United States and our partners and allies will look to to see what is doable here. But I don't want to get ahead of those consultations⁸ and that process.

MARTINEZ: Now, the war is evolving. Should the U.S. now support Ukraine with heavier weaponry - artillery⁹, tanks, something that a NATO ally might provide?

FINER: So the United States, and particularly our Defense¹⁰ Department, believe we are providing the Ukrainians with exactly the forms of security assistance and weapons they need to be most effective on the battlefield. We believe that the most effective weapons and, you know, the results as this conflict has unfolded have really borne this out - have been the anti-tank weapons that have been provided by the U.S. and our allies, the anti-aircraft weapons that the United States has provided. And as this conflict has gone on, the United States and our allies have provided increasingly effective and sophisticated systems, including drones, including a range of other systems that we think are going to continue to allow the Ukrainians to have the success they need on the battlefield to hold the Russians off. And the results that you're seeing with the Russians now pulling back from Kyiv and then redoubling their efforts in the south and the east reflect a greater degree of effectiveness than I think many people expected from the Ukrainian army.

MARTINEZ: But at this point...

FINER: But there's still a long way to go.

MARTINEZ: Yeah, but at this point, why not MIG aircraft? I know that the administration called it escalatory to do that, but considering what we've seen, especially this week from Bucha, I mean, why not at this point?

FINER: So just to reiterate¹¹, 'cause I think there's some misunderstanding about this, the United States does not have MIG aircraft and the United States has not said no and could not say no to other countries transferring MIG aircraft to Ukraine. Other countries have not yet made the decision to do that. The United States certainly wouldn't stand in the way of it. Excuse me. But what our military believes at this point is that the weapons and the systems that are going to be most effective for the Ukrainians, the ones that I just described, are going into Ukraine en masse. And you are seeing the results of those transfers of weapons on the battlefield in real time in the effectiveness of the Ukrainian armed forces.

MARTINEZ: Considering that Russia is one of the permanent members of the Security Council, what would the Biden administration like to see come out of today's meeting?

FINER: Well, I think you're going to see Russia very much put on the defensive¹². You're going to see President Zelenskyy address the council. And I think he will do so, as he always does, in an extremely vivid and compelling way, having just visited some of the areas of Ukraine most affected¹³ by Russian atrocities and war crimes. You're going to see a presentation from the U.S. permanent representative to the Security Council, Ambassador Thomas-Greenfield, who herself is just back from the region, having spent the last few days talking to and interviewing and discussing the situation with Ukrainian refugees who have fled the country. And I think you're going to see Russia and very few other countries trying to paint this situation in a totally different and unrealistic light and very much put on the defensive by members of the council who have seen enough.

MARTINEZ: Considering that President Zelenskyy has used the word genocide here - I know the White House is being very careful not to use that - what would you have to see to agree that genocide is happening in Ukraine?

FINER: So genocide is a determination that is generally made - excuse me - over time, you know, upon review of a significant body of evidence. And I think that evidence, at this point in - at least in our assessment¹⁴, has not yet been collected and analyzed¹⁵ to the degree that would allow us to make that sort of claim. That said, we are very comfortable and very appalled¹⁶ by what we are seeing in terms of atrocities, in terms of war crimes. And we expect there will be much more to come.

MARTINEZ: White House principal deputy national security adviser Jon Finer, thank you very much.

FINER: Thank you for having me.

1 transcript   

n.抄本，誊本，副本，肄业证书

参考例句：

• A transcript of the tapes was presented as evidence in court.一份录音带的文字本作为证据被呈交法庭。
• They wouldn't let me have a transcript of the interview.他们拒绝给我一份采访的文字整理稿。

2 adviser   

n.劝告者，顾问

参考例句：

• They employed me as an adviser.他们聘请我当顾问。
• Our department has engaged a foreign teacher as phonetic adviser.我们系已经聘请了一位外籍老师作为语音顾问。

3 alleged   

a.被指控的，嫌疑的

参考例句：

• It was alleged that he had taken bribes while in office. 他被指称在任时收受贿赂。
• alleged irregularities in the election campaign 被指称竞选运动中的不正当行为

4 civilians   

平民，百姓( civilian的名词复数 )； 老百姓

参考例句：

• the bloody massacre of innocent civilians 对无辜平民的血腥屠杀
• At least 300 civilians are unaccounted for after the bombing raids. 遭轰炸袭击之后，至少有300名平民下落不明。

5 jurisdictional   

adj. 司法权的，裁决权的，管辖权的

参考例句：

• In practice, however, this jurisdictional limit on administrative investigations is generally easy to satisfy. 然而在实践中，对行政调查的这种司法限制通常很容易符合规定标准。
• The jurisdictional amount is set by statute and is currently $80,000. 案件标的管辖权由法律规定，目前是80，000美元。 来自口语例句

6 mechanisms   

n.机械( mechanism的名词复数 )；机械装置；[生物学] 机制；机械作用

参考例句：

• The research will provide direct insight into molecular mechanisms. 这项研究将使人能够直接地了解分子的机理。 来自《简明英汉词典》
• He explained how the two mechanisms worked. 他解释这两台机械装置是如何工作的。 来自《简明英汉词典》

7 atrocities   

n.邪恶，暴行( atrocity的名词复数 )；滔天大罪

参考例句：

• They were guilty of the most barbarous and inhuman atrocities. 他们犯有最野蛮、最灭绝人性的残暴罪行。 来自《简明英汉词典》
• The enemy's atrocities made one boil with anger. 敌人的暴行令人发指。 来自《现代汉英综合大词典》

8 consultations   

n.磋商（会议）( consultation的名词复数 )；商讨会；协商会；查找

参考例句：

• Consultations can be arranged at other times by appointment. 磋商可以通过预约安排在其他时间。 来自《现代汉英综合大词典》
• Consultations are under way. 正在进行磋商。 来自《现代汉英综合大词典》

9 artillery   

n.(军)火炮，大炮；炮兵(部队)

参考例句：

• This is a heavy artillery piece.这是一门重炮。
• The artillery has more firepower than the infantry.炮兵火力比步兵大。

10 defense   

n.防御，保卫；[pl.]防务工事；辩护，答辩

参考例句：

• The accused has the right to defense.被告人有权获得辩护。
• The war has impacted the area with military and defense workers.战争使那个地区挤满了军队和防御工程人员。

11 reiterate   

v.重申，反复地说

参考例句：

• Let me reiterate that we have absolutely no plans to increase taxation.让我再一次重申我们绝对没有增税的计划。
• I must reiterate that our position on this issue is very clear.我必须重申我们对这一项议题的立场很清楚。

12 defensive   

adj.防御的；防卫的；防守的

参考例句：

• Their questions about the money put her on the defensive.他们问到钱的问题，使她警觉起来。
• The Government hastily organized defensive measures against the raids.政府急忙布置了防卫措施抵御空袭。

13 affected   

adj.不自然的，假装的

参考例句：

• She showed an affected interest in our subject.她假装对我们的课题感到兴趣。
• His manners are affected.他的态度不自然。

14 assessment   

n.评价；评估；对财产的估价，被估定的金额

参考例句：

• This is a very perceptive assessment of the situation.这是一个对该情况的极富洞察力的评价。
• What is your assessment of the situation?你对时局的看法如何？

15 analyzed   

v.分析( analyze的过去式和过去分词 )；分解；解释；对…进行心理分析

参考例句：

• The doctors analyzed the blood sample for anemia. 医生们分析了贫血的血样。 来自《简明英汉词典》
• The young man did not analyze the process of his captivation and enrapturement, for love to him was a mystery and could not be analyzed. 这年轻人没有分析自己蛊惑著迷的过程，因为对他来说，爱是个不可分析的迷。 来自《简明英汉词典》

16 appalled   

v.使惊骇，使充满恐惧( appall的过去式和过去分词)adj.惊骇的；丧胆的

参考例句：

• The brutality of the crime has appalled the public. 罪行之残暴使公众大为震惊。
• They were appalled by the reports of the nuclear war. 他们被核战争的报道吓坏了。 来自《简明英汉词典》