美国国家公共电台 NPR--NPR's Nina Totenberg discusses her longterm friendship with Ruth Bader Ginsburg

NPR's Nina Totenberg discusses her longterm friendship with Ruth Bader Ginsburg

Transcript¹

Steve Inskeep talks with NPR's Nina Totenberg about her upcoming book, "Dinners with Ruth," and her decades-long friendship with Ruth Bader Ginsburg and others in positions of power.

STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:

Our colleague Nina Totenberg has been covering the Supreme² Court for decades.

NINA TOTENBERG, BYLINE³: I was a young woman at a time when there were almost none of us in the workforce⁴.

INSKEEP: And she has a memory of her early years of encountering another woman.

TOTENBERG: I was a newly assigned, very young reporter to cover the court. And I was reading a brief that said that the 14th Amendment⁵ guaranteed to equal protection of the law applied⁶ to women. And I really didn't understand that because it was passed after the Civil War for enslaved people to make sure that they were free.

INSKEEP: In a time when men alone had the vote.

TOTENBERG: And when women didn't even have the vote.

INSKEEP: Totenberg called a little-known lawyer in the case named Ruth Bader Ginsburg. They became friends and remained so as Ginsburg became a Supreme Court justice years later. Ginsburg is now one of the friends Nina discusses in a book called "Dinners With Ruth: A Memoir⁷ Of The Power Of Friendships."

TOTENBERG: We had a lot in common. I remember how distressed⁸ she was because she'd applied for a federal district court judgeship. She'd been interviewed by this committee who told her she didn't have enough securities law experience. And she muttered - she said something like, I really wanted to say, how much experience do you have in sex discrimination cases or discrimination cases of any kind?

INSKEEP: Though Ginsburg is the star, Totenberg's book talks of a generation of women - and men who helped them - including some women known as founding mothers of this network.

TOTENBERG: I was experiencing and Cokie Roberts was experiencing and Susan Stamberg was experiencing and Linda Wertheimer was experiencing all of the same kinds of things that Ruth Bader Ginsburg was. We were very lucky to, in our formative lives, be together and to be able to help each other and to learn from each other and to lean on each other.

INSKEEP: How did you keep your friendship separate from your work when it became apparent that you were going to be covering Ruth Bader Ginsburg all the time?

TOTENBERG: It was oddly easy. The Supreme Court is not the House, the Senate, the White House, where the lines are very blurred⁹, and you can get a scoop¹⁰ any day of the week. It's very clear that justices aren't supposed to and don't discuss pending¹¹ cases that are before them.

INSKEEP: You never asked.

TOTENBERG: I never asked. I never tried to go over that line. And she, conversely, didn't try to do that with me.

INSKEEP: On reflection, she did once. Ginsburg got in trouble for criticizing then-presidential candidate Donald Trump¹². Days later, she was interviewed on another subject by Nina Totenberg, and the Supreme Court justice asked Nina not to bring it up.

TOTENBERG: And she said, oh, please don't do that. And I said, Ruth, it's my job. I have to.

INSKEEP: Totenberg did.

TOTENBERG: Why did you just think that it was time to say you were sorry you made these remarks?

RUTH BADER GINSBURG: Because it was incautious. I said something I should not have said.

INSKEEP: Their professional duties differed from their friendship. For Ruth Bader Ginsburg, friendship could also be part of her professional duty. The liberal justice was famously close with conservatives on the court.

We are in an era in which a lot of people would ask, what is the point? What is the point of trying to be friends with someone on the other side politically? What do you think she felt the point was?

TOTENBERG: The point was you have to work together, and you might be more persuasive¹³ if you can get along, one way and the other way. I mean, there are times that someone might persuade her if she had a good relationship with him - because, most of the time, it was him - or she might be more persuasive. You have a job to do.

INSKEEP: Ginsburg was 60 when she became a justice in 1993. She was in her 80s during the presidency¹⁴ of Barack Obama. In retrospect¹⁵, even some of her liberal fans criticize Ginsburg's choice not to retire when a Democrat¹⁶ could have appointed her successor.

TOTENBERG: Ultimately, I think she thought - remember, there was a filibuster¹⁷ then - that if she retired¹⁸, that Republicans would block a successor. And she very much wanted to give what she thought was going to be the first woman president the opportunity to appoint her replacement¹⁹.

INSKEEP: She thought Hillary Clinton, as most people did, many people did...

TOTENBERG: Right.

INSKEEP: ...Was likely to win.

TOTENBERG: She rolled the dice²⁰, and she lost.

INSKEEP: During the Trump administration, she was diagnosed with cancer. The doctors advising Ginsburg included Nina Totenberg's own husband. But neither her husband nor the justice disclosed the cancer diagnosis²¹ to Nina until just before Ginsburg decided²² to make it public.

TOTENBERG: And she said, Nina, I'm just calling you because I wanted you to understand why I didn't let David tell you anything. And she said, I didn't want you to be trapped between your friendship for me and your obligation as a reporter.

INSKEEP: I was thinking that as you told the story, that her not telling you was, in a way, kind.

TOTENBERG: It was very kind.

INSKEEP: Ginsburg's death in 2020 allowed President Trump to appoint Justice Amy Coney Barrett. Trump had explicitly²³ promised to appoint justices who would overturn the right to an abortion²⁴, and they did. The ruling quoted Ruth Bader Ginsburg. She had herself said Roe²⁵ v. Wade²⁶ interrupted political debate on abortion and also that it could have been decided on stronger legal grounds.

TOTENBERG: She thought a woman's right to determine her bodily autonomy should be equal to men's under the Constitution of the United States.

INSKEEP: The 14th Amendment...

TOTENBERG: The 14th Amendment.

INSKEEP: ...On equal protection of the laws.

TOTENBERG: Yes.

INSKEEP: What do you think she might say today if she were still around and could read the Supreme Court ruling by Justice Alito overturning Roe v. Wade, which quotes Ruth Bader Ginsburg?

TOTENBERG: I think that's an indication of how much bad feeling there is among the justices on this court that that section was not taken out because it was written out of context completely. Everybody knows that if she had been alive, she would have taken his skin off over that section, but it remained in the opinion.

INSKEEP: Ruth Bader Ginsburg's legacy²⁷ includes famous legal arguments over equal rights. Nina Totenberg says she has another legacy, as a friend.

TOTENBERG: I don't know how I would have gotten through the long illness of my late husband without Cokie Roberts and Linda Wertheimer and Ruth Bader Ginsburg. And I think that if you can do one thing - and I have one word for it - you will find that it solves all of the questions that you have. You have to do your duty. And if you do your duty in the middle of a crisis, you will do the right thing, and you will be paid back a million times over. I really believe that about friendship.

INSKEEP: Nina, thanks very much.

TOTENBERG: You're welcome.

INSKEEP: Her book is called "Dinners With Ruth."

1 transcript   

n.抄本，誊本，副本，肄业证书

参考例句：

• A transcript of the tapes was presented as evidence in court.一份录音带的文字本作为证据被呈交法庭。
• They wouldn't let me have a transcript of the interview.他们拒绝给我一份采访的文字整理稿。

2 supreme   

adj.极度的，最重要的；至高的，最高的

参考例句：

• It was the supreme moment in his life.那是他一生中最重要的时刻。
• He handed up the indictment to the supreme court.他把起诉书送交最高法院。

3 byline   

n.署名；v.署名

参考例句：

• His byline was absent as well.他的署名也不见了。
• We wish to thank the author of this article which carries no byline.我们要感谢这篇文章的那位没有署名的作者。

4 workforce   

n.劳动大军，劳动力

参考例句：

• A large part of the workforce is employed in agriculture.劳动人口中一大部分受雇于农业。
• A quarter of the local workforce is unemployed.本地劳动力中有四分之一失业。

5 amendment   

n.改正，修正，改善，修正案

参考例句：

• The amendment was rejected by 207 voters to 143.这项修正案以207票对143票被否决。
• The Opposition has tabled an amendment to the bill.反对党已经就该议案提交了一项修正条款。

6 applied   

adj.应用的；v.应用，适用

参考例句：

• She plans to take a course in applied linguistics.她打算学习应用语言学课程。
• This cream is best applied to the face at night.这种乳霜最好晚上擦脸用。

7 memoir   

n.[pl.]回忆录，自传；记事录

参考例句：

• He has just published a memoir in honour of his captain.他刚刚出了一本传记来纪念他的队长。
• In her memoir,the actress wrote about the bittersweet memories of her first love.在那个女演员的自传中，她写到了自己苦乐掺半的初恋。

8 distressed   

痛苦的

参考例句：

• He was too distressed and confused to answer their questions. 他非常苦恼而困惑，无法回答他们的问题。
• The news of his death distressed us greatly. 他逝世的消息使我们极为悲痛。

9 blurred   

v.（使）变模糊( blur的过去式和过去分词 )；（使）难以区分；模模糊糊；迷离

参考例句：

• She suffered from dizziness and blurred vision. 她饱受头晕目眩之苦。
• Their lazy, blurred voices fell pleasantly on his ears. 他们那种慢吞吞、含糊不清的声音在他听起来却很悦耳。 来自《简明英汉词典》

10 scoop   

n.铲子，舀取，独家新闻；v.汲取，舀取，抢先登出

参考例句：

• In the morning he must get his boy to scoop it out.早上一定得叫佣人把它剜出来。
• Uh,one scoop of coffee and one scoop of chocolate for me.我要一勺咖啡的和一勺巧克力的。

11 pending   

prep.直到，等待…期间；adj.待定的；迫近的

参考例句：

• The lawsuit is still pending in the state court.这案子仍在州法庭等待定夺。
• He knew my examination was pending.他知道我就要考试了。

12 trump   

n.王牌，法宝；v.打出王牌，吹喇叭

参考例句：

• He was never able to trump up the courage to have a showdown.他始终鼓不起勇气摊牌。
• The coach saved his star player for a trump card.教练保留他的明星选手，作为他的王牌。

13 persuasive   

adj.有说服力的，能说得使人相信的

参考例句：

• His arguments in favour of a new school are very persuasive.他赞成办一座新学校的理由很有说服力。
• The evidence was not really persuasive enough.证据并不是太有说服力。

14 presidency   

n.总统(校长，总经理)的职位(任期)

参考例句：

• Roosevelt was elected four times to the presidency of the United States.罗斯福连续当选四届美国总统。
• Two candidates are emerging as contestants for the presidency.两位候选人最终成为总统职位竞争者。

15 retrospect   

n.回顾，追溯；v.回顾，回想，追溯

参考例句：

• One's school life seems happier in retrospect than in reality.学校生活回忆起来显得比实际上要快乐。
• In retrospect,it's easy to see why we were wrong.回顾过去就很容易明白我们的错处了。

16 democrat   

n.民主主义者，民主人士；民主党党员

参考例句：

• The Democrat and the Public criticized each other.民主党人和共和党人互相攻击。
• About two years later,he was defeated by Democrat Jimmy Carter.大约两年后，他被民主党人杰米卡特击败。

17 filibuster   

n.妨碍议事，阻挠；v.阻挠

参考例句：

• A senator dragged the subject in as a filibuster.一个参议员硬把这个题目拉扯进来，作为一种阻碍议事的手法。
• The democrats organized a filibuster in the senate.民主党党员在参议院上组织了阻挠议事。

18 retired   

adj.隐退的，退休的，退役的

参考例句：

• The old man retired to the country for rest.这位老人下乡休息去了。
• Many retired people take up gardening as a hobby.许多退休的人都以从事园艺为嗜好。

19 replacement   

n.取代，替换，交换；替代品，代用品

参考例句：

• We are hard put to find a replacement for our assistant.我们很难找到一个人来代替我们的助手。
• They put all the students through the replacement examination.他们让所有的学生参加分班考试。

20 dice   

n.骰子；vt.把（食物）切成小方块，冒险

参考例句：

• They were playing dice.他们在玩掷骰子游戏。
• A dice is a cube.骰子是立方体。

21 diagnosis   

n.诊断，诊断结果，调查分析，判断

参考例句：

• His symptoms gave no obvious pointer to a possible diagnosis.他的症状无法作出明确的诊断。
• The engineer made a complete diagnosis of the bridge's collapse.工程师对桥的倒塌做一次彻底的调查分析。

22 decided   

adj.决定了的，坚决的；明显的，明确的

参考例句：

• This gave them a decided advantage over their opponents.这使他们比对手具有明显的优势。
• There is a decided difference between British and Chinese way of greeting.英国人和中国人打招呼的方式有很明显的区别。

23 explicitly   

ad.明确地，显然地

参考例句：

• The plan does not explicitly endorse the private ownership of land. 该计划没有明确地支持土地私有制。
• SARA amended section 113 to provide explicitly for a right to contribution. 《最高基金修正与再授权法案》修正了第123条，清楚地规定了分配权。 来自英汉非文学 - 环境法 - 环境法

24 abortion   

n.流产，堕胎

参考例句：

• She had an abortion at the women's health clinic.她在妇女保健医院做了流产手术。
• A number of considerations have led her to have a wilful abortion.多种考虑使她执意堕胎。

25 roe   

n.鱼卵；獐鹿

参考例句：

• We will serve smoked cod's roe at the dinner.宴会上我们将上一道熏鳕鱼子。
• I'll scramble some eggs with roe?我用鱼籽炒几个鸡蛋好吗？

26 wade   

v.跋涉，涉水；n.跋涉

参考例句：

• We had to wade through the river to the opposite bank.我们只好涉水过河到对岸。
• We cannot but wade across the river.我们只好趟水过去。

27 legacy   

n.遗产，遗赠；先人(或过去)留下的东西

参考例句：

• They are the most precious cultural legacy our forefathers left.它们是我们祖先留下来的最宝贵的文化遗产。
• He thinks the legacy is a gift from the Gods.他认为这笔遗产是天赐之物。