美国国家公共电台 NPR--After Iraq, Mullen wants to prevent future presidents from launching a war of choice

After Iraq, Mullen wants to prevent future presidents from launching a war of choice

Transcript¹

The U.S. invaded Iraq 20 years ago Monday. NPR's Steve Inskeep speaks with retired² Admiral Mike Mullen, whose tenure³ as chairman of the Joint⁴ Chiefs of Staff included the troop surge in Iraq.

STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:

The 20th anniversary of the U.S. invasion of Iraq has many people remembering. This day, in 2003, U.S. bombs and missiles struck Baghdad. An army soon followed and deposed⁵ Iraq's leader, only to find he did not have weapons of mass destruction, as the U.S. had claimed, and then to find they faced an insurgency⁶. Recently, American veterans recalled fighting house-to-house in Fallujah.

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #1: If you needed to put a tank main gun round into a building, you put a tank main gun round into the building. You know, if we needed to blow down trees to clear our fields of fire, we blew down trees to clear our fields of fire.

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #2: Every day, it was kicking in doors, house-to-house, clearing operations. Sometimes...

INSKEEP: These voices are from a new NPR podcast, Taking Cover, in which a team, including our colleague Tom Bowman, investigate Americans who killed their own comrades in an act of friendly fire.

TOM BOWMAN, BYLINE⁷: It's a story about mistakes, faulty assumptions, miscalculations, lies.

INSKEEP: When Tom came by my office last week, he said that sentence you just heard could sum up the war. We hear next from a man whose job was to clean up the mess. In 2006, as the war grew worse, President George W. Bush's party lost control of Congress. But rather than end the war as public support dropped, the president sent more troops.

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GEORGE W BUSH: If we increase our support at this crucial moment and help the Iraqis break the current cycle of violence, we can hasten the day our troops begin coming home.

INSKEEP: Months later, a new officer took over as the president's top military adviser⁸. Admiral Mike Mullen was chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff as fighting continued for several more years. And we began our talk at that moment of trying to recover from calamity⁹.

Did anybody in the Pentagon think at that moment or argue at that moment the thing to do, actually, is to stop - this is not going well, stop digging the hole?

MIKE MULLEN: No. No, no. Not from my perspective. It was to try to turn it around because we were losing literally¹⁰ hundreds of our men and women a month, and we knew we had to turn that.

INSKEEP: What do you think you achieved, then?

MULLEN: Well, among other things, the killings¹¹ slowed dramatically. The number of troops that we lost while the surge itself - and as we talk about this, the first thing that comes to my mind are the some, you know, 4,000 or so troops that we lost that were killed in Iraq over the course of that war, and lives changed forever. Families changed forever. And the brave young men and women who went off to serve nobly, I actually would say that given how poorly it had gone in the first several years, that surge set the stage for the transition, which actually is still going on, literally as we speak.

INSKEEP: I'm glad you mention the human cost. Of course, there was a human cost in Iraqis that was even...

MULLEN: Yeah.

INSKEEP: ...Far greater than Americans who were killed. When veterans have been asked in recent years, was this war worth it, majorities have said no, it was not. Majorities of Americans have said the war was not worth fighting for. What would you say to them?

MULLEN: I generally would agree with that, Steve. I think it was a mistake. The presidents - and I worked for two of them - and many more have said the most consequential¹² decision they make in that office is to send young men and women off to war. And my worry is that we didn't have the debate and we didn't get the answer right.

INSKEEP: Some people who are in government with you, though, still argue, I suppose, that it is a kind of 60-40 result. They feel that despite all the problems, that there was some benefit. Let's hear one such perspective from former Defense¹³ Secretary Robert Gates, who served under both Bush and Obama. He spoke¹⁴ last week to NPR's All Things Considered.

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ROBERT GATES: From today's vantage point, you have an Iraq that has a democratically elected government, however flawed. It's really the only democratically elected government in the Arab world, for all of its flaws.

INSKEEP: Would you defend the Iraq war results even to that extent, to say that, well, there was some benefit?

MULLEN: Yeah, I would, Steve. I mean, I think there was some. And I think what Secretary Gates said is true. I think if one can back away from that and look at if we knew that today is where we'd be, whether the price that was paid would be worth it - and I'm not sure it would be.

INSKEEP: We told Admiral Mullen of a darker vision of the war. It comes from the city of Fallujah, that city where we heard about the house-to-house combat. Recently, our colleague Tom Bowman went there and spoke with Sheikh Nawwaf Jabbar Hussein Ali (ph).

NAWWAF JABBAR HUSSEIN ALI: (Through interpreter) The American, they ruined the whole country and specifically Fallujah. We've been displaced many, many times here. And then the Americans brought al-Qaida. Al-Qaida never exist in Iraq before.

INSKEEP: Doesn't that cast a different idea of the war - even the resolution of the war - that for Iraqis, it's not even resolved?

MULLEN: Steve, when you ask that question, I mean, one of the biggest lessons that I took away is to see the challenges from the people who are most affected¹⁵. And certainly, I can't push back on how he sees that. My perspective is a little different. Certainly, that wasn't the intent, and obviously, that was the most intense fighting, I think, over the course of the many years that we fought there, you know, in Fallujah. So that perspective is something that we need to, I think, take into consideration. And it would have been much better to understand that ahead of time as opposed to ending up the way it did in terms of the damage that we - that the war generated with respect to that country and its future. And I think now we have to both hope and pray that they can see a future where they are unimpeded by ISIS and al-Qaida, et cetera. And to the degree that we can help them and support in that regard, I think we have an obligation to do that.

INSKEEP: What lessons did the military learn from this bitter experience?

MULLEN: Well, the biggest lesson for me, quite frankly¹⁶, was to have the American people on side. I've argued in recent times that for the future, we need to reduce the size of our actually standing¹⁷ army. And so the next time we go to war or the president wants to go to war, he'll have to call up a half a million kids not to make the initial surge, if you will, or the initial deployment¹⁸ - these wars also have a way of lasting¹⁹ longer than we thought. That debate about a draft needs to take place at the dinner table of every family that's got a young son or daughter that's 18 or 19 years old that could get drafted to go fight the war. That's what's got to be fed up to our congressional leadership and voted on in terms of a decision to go or not.

INSKEEP: You're describing, Admiral, of course, the way that American wars - large wars - were fought up until modern times. There would be a relatively²⁰ small army and navy and they would expand in times of war. And you're telling me you want that as a kind of deterrent²¹ against a needless war. You want the next president or a future president to be forced to take that step before going to war.

MULLEN: I want that debate to occur, Steve. I haven't been able to come up with a better mechanism²² to force that than to draft kids - you know, draft young men and women.

INSKEEP: Admiral Mike Mullen, it's a pleasure talking with you again. Thank you so much.

MULLEN: Thanks, Steve.

INSKEEP: He was chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff under Presidents Bush and Obama during the later years of the war in Iraq.

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1 transcript   

n.抄本，誊本，副本，肄业证书

参考例句：

• A transcript of the tapes was presented as evidence in court.一份录音带的文字本作为证据被呈交法庭。
• They wouldn't let me have a transcript of the interview.他们拒绝给我一份采访的文字整理稿。

2 retired   

adj.隐退的，退休的，退役的

参考例句：

• The old man retired to the country for rest.这位老人下乡休息去了。
• Many retired people take up gardening as a hobby.许多退休的人都以从事园艺为嗜好。

3 tenure   

n.终身职位；任期；(土地)保有权，保有期

参考例句：

• He remained popular throughout his tenure of the office of mayor.他在担任市长的整个任期内都深得民心。
• Land tenure is a leading political issue in many parts of the world.土地的保有权在世界很多地区是主要的政治问题。

4 joint   

adj.联合的，共同的；n.关节，接合处；v.连接，贴合

参考例句：

• I had a bad fall,which put my shoulder out of joint.我重重地摔了一跤，肩膀脫臼了。
• We wrote a letter in joint names.我们联名写了封信。

5 deposed   

v.罢免( depose的过去式和过去分词 )；（在法庭上）宣誓作证

参考例句：

• The president was deposed in a military coup. 总统在军事政变中被废黜。
• The head of state was deposed by the army. 国家元首被军队罢免了。 来自《简明英汉词典》

6 insurgency   

n.起义；暴动；叛变

参考例句：

• And as in China, unrest and even insurgency are widespread. 而在中国，动乱甚至暴乱都普遍存在。 来自互联网
• Dr Zyphur is part an insurgency against this idea. 塞弗博士是这一观点逆流的一部分。 来自互联网

7 byline   

n.署名；v.署名

参考例句：

• His byline was absent as well.他的署名也不见了。
• We wish to thank the author of this article which carries no byline.我们要感谢这篇文章的那位没有署名的作者。

8 adviser   

n.劝告者，顾问

参考例句：

• They employed me as an adviser.他们聘请我当顾问。
• Our department has engaged a foreign teacher as phonetic adviser.我们系已经聘请了一位外籍老师作为语音顾问。

9 calamity   

n.灾害，祸患，不幸事件

参考例句：

• Even a greater natural calamity cannot daunt us. 再大的自然灾害也压不垮我们。
• The attack on Pearl Harbor was a crushing calamity.偷袭珍珠港(对美军来说)是一场毁灭性的灾难。

10 literally   

adv.照字面意义，逐字地；确实

参考例句：

• He translated the passage literally.他逐字逐句地翻译这段文字。
• Sometimes she would not sit down till she was literally faint.有时候，她不走到真正要昏厥了，决不肯坐下来。

11 killings   

谋杀( killing的名词复数 )； 突然发大财，暴发

参考例句：

• His statement was seen as an allusion to the recent drug-related killings. 他的声明被视为暗指最近与毒品有关的多起凶杀案。
• The government issued a statement condemning the killings. 政府发表声明谴责这些凶杀事件。

12 consequential   

adj.作为结果的，间接的；重要的

参考例句：

• She was injured and suffered a consequential loss of earnings.她受了伤因而收入受损。
• This new transformation is at least as consequential as that one was.这一新的转变至少和那次一样重要。

13 defense   

n.防御，保卫；[pl.]防务工事；辩护，答辩

参考例句：

• The accused has the right to defense.被告人有权获得辩护。
• The war has impacted the area with military and defense workers.战争使那个地区挤满了军队和防御工程人员。

14 spoke   

n.（车轮的）辐条；轮辐；破坏某人的计划；阻挠某人的行动 v.讲，谈（speak的过去式）；说；演说；从某种观点来说

参考例句：

• They sourced the spoke nuts from our company.他们的轮辐螺帽是从我们公司获得的。
• The spokes of a wheel are the bars that connect the outer ring to the centre.辐条是轮子上连接外圈与中心的条棒。

15 affected   

adj.不自然的，假装的

参考例句：

• She showed an affected interest in our subject.她假装对我们的课题感到兴趣。
• His manners are affected.他的态度不自然。

16 frankly   

adv.坦白地，直率地；坦率地说

参考例句：

• To speak frankly, I don't like the idea at all.老实说，我一点也不赞成这个主意。
• Frankly speaking, I'm not opposed to reform.坦率地说，我不反对改革。

17 standing   

n.持续，地位；adj.永久的，不动的，直立的，不流动的

参考例句：

• After the earthquake only a few houses were left standing.地震过后只有几幢房屋还立着。
• They're standing out against any change in the law.他们坚决反对对法律做任何修改。

18 deployment   

n. 部署,展开

参考例句：

• He has inquired out the deployment of the enemy troops. 他已查出敌军的兵力部署情况。
• Quality function deployment (QFD) is a widely used customer-driven quality, design and manufacturing management tool. 质量功能展开(quality function deployment,QFD)是一个广泛应用的顾客需求驱动的设计、制造和质量管理工具。

19 lasting   

adj.永久的，永恒的；vbl.持续，维持

参考例句：

• The lasting war debased the value of the dollar.持久的战争使美元贬值。
• We hope for a lasting settlement of all these troubles.我们希望这些纠纷能获得永久的解决。

20 relatively   

adv.比较...地，相对地

参考例句：

• The rabbit is a relatively recent introduction in Australia.兔子是相对较新引入澳大利亚的物种。
• The operation was relatively painless.手术相对来说不痛。

21 deterrent   

n.阻碍物，制止物；adj.威慑的，遏制的

参考例句：

• Large fines act as a deterrent to motorists.高额罚款是对开车的人的制约。
• I put a net over my strawberries as a deterrent to the birds.我在草莓上罩了网，免得鸟歇上去。

22 mechanism   

n.机械装置；机构，结构

参考例句：

• The bones and muscles are parts of the mechanism of the body.骨骼和肌肉是人体的组成部件。
• The mechanism of the machine is very complicated.这台机器的结构是非常复杂的。