美国国家公共电台 NPR--Egyptians and others are upset a Black actress stars in Netflix's 'Queen Cleopatra'

Egyptians and others are upset a Black actress stars in Netflix's 'Queen Cleopatra'

Transcript¹

NPR's Michel Martin talks to Rebecca Futo Kennedy, associate professor at Denison University, about the flak surrounding the Netflix docudrama Queen Cleopatra, which depicts² her as Black.

MICHEL MARTIN, HOST:

The new Netflix docudrama "Queen Cleopatra" is stirring debate because the series portrays⁴ the iconic monarch⁵ as Black. Egypt's Supreme⁶ Council of Antiquities⁷ calls the show, quote, "a falsification of Egyptian history," unquote. We wanted to dig into that, so we called Rebecca Futo Kennedy. She is an associate professor at Denison University, and she's an authority on race and ethnicity in antiquity⁸, and she's with us now. Good morning.

REBECCA FUTO KENNEDY: Good morning.

MARTIN: So before we get into the controversy⁹, just tell us about the history. How does the way we think about race today compare to Cleopatra's time?

KENNEDY: So I think we need to recognize that race is not actually these categories of Black and white. That's one of the confusion points. It's actually the political and social system that makes those categories relevant. So if you think about how we organize people historically into different groupings, sometimes in the recent, you know, 2- to 300 years, we've used Black and white, but in the past, they used different categories entirely¹⁰, usually functioning around culture or religion, sometimes geography. So basically, when we talk about Black and white in antiquity, we're mostly talking about gender¹¹ distinctions, not what we would call race today. So that's really one of the primary differences.

MARTIN: So what do you think informed the depiction¹² of Cleopatra in this series? And of course, you know, I'm going to ask you is, is it historically, you know, accurate or at least reasonable that she be depicted¹³ as Black?

KENNEDY: So what informed us, of course, is a couple of hundred years of debate over what Africa has contributed to, quote-unquote, "civilization." So we've heard a lot of sort of white supremacist discourse¹⁴ in the past that basically says that Africa contributed nothing to civilization, and so this is a way to push back on that. That's been happening since the 19th century to sort of reclaim¹⁵ an ancient past for Black Americans especially, but for Africa, generally speaking. So that's one of the things that sort of is underlying¹⁶ all this.

Now, your question about whether or not it's OK or not OK to portray³ her as Black - Cleopatra manipulated her own image all the time. She had one face for her coinage and multiple faces for her coinage that went out amongst the Greeks in the Mediterranean¹⁷ and the Romans. And she had a different face that she wore in her Egyptian iconography. So she herself was manipulating her own image for audience. So whether we do this in our own entertainment industry or not seems to be fitting in with her own iconographic tradition.

MARTIN: And there was no photography. (Laughter) So how do we know?

KENNEDY: (Laughter) And there was no photography.

MARTIN: Or AI for that matter. But so...

KENNEDY: Right.

MARTIN: But while we're at it, just as briefly¹⁸ as you can, why do you think there's been such a focus on her race? And what do you think the backlash against the show in Egypt says about how race or skin color or whatever it is functions there?

KENNEDY: So I hate to pull this one out, but - so there was a quotation¹⁹ recently in a New York Times piece where it talks about Egypt's precarious²⁰ relationship to Africa itself. And the quote was that it holds membership in the African Union and other continental²¹ groups. Then they say, but in Greek and Roman times, historians say, Egypt was a major player in the Mediterranean and a gateway²² to Africa, rather than fully²³ African. And I think that's the problem, is that we've always wanted to position Egypt as more of a legacy²⁴ of Europe and not of Africa. And that debate is still raging, and that's why we have such a heavy conflict over this.

MARTIN: That is Rebecca Futo Kennedy. She's an associate professor of classical studies at Denison University. Thanks so much for trying to clear this up for us.

KENNEDY: You're welcome.

(SOUNDBITE OF JESSICA RICCA'S "CLEOPATRA")

1 transcript   

n.抄本，誊本，副本，肄业证书

参考例句：

• A transcript of the tapes was presented as evidence in court.一份录音带的文字本作为证据被呈交法庭。
• They wouldn't let me have a transcript of the interview.他们拒绝给我一份采访的文字整理稿。

2 depicts   

描绘，描画( depict的第三人称单数 )； 描述

参考例句：

• The book vividly depicts French society of the 1930s. 这本书生动地描绘了20 世纪30 年代的法国社会。
• He depicts the sordid and vulgar sides of life exclusively. 他只描写人生肮脏和庸俗的一面。

3 portray   

v.描写，描述；画(人物、景象等)

参考例句：

• It is difficult to portray feelings in words.感情很难用言语来描写。
• Can you portray the best and worst aspects of this job?您能描述一下这份工作最好与最坏的方面吗？

4 portrays   

v.画像( portray的第三人称单数 )；描述；描绘；描画

参考例句：

• The museum collection vividly portrays the heritage of 200 years of canals. 博物馆的藏品让运河200 年的历史再现眼前。 来自《简明英汉词典》
• The film portrays Gandhi as a kind of superman. 这部电影把甘地描绘成一个超人。 来自《简明英汉词典》

5 monarch   

n.帝王，君主，最高统治者

参考例句：

• The monarch's role is purely ceremonial.君主纯粹是个礼仪职位。
• I think myself happier now than the greatest monarch upon earth.我觉得这个时候比世界上什么帝王都快乐。

6 supreme   

adj.极度的，最重要的；至高的，最高的

参考例句：

• It was the supreme moment in his life.那是他一生中最重要的时刻。
• He handed up the indictment to the supreme court.他把起诉书送交最高法院。

7 antiquities   

n.古老( antiquity的名词复数 )；古迹；古人们；古代的风俗习惯

参考例句：

• There is rest and healing in the contemplation of antiquities. 欣赏古物有休息和疗养之功。 来自辞典例句
• Bertha developed a fine enthusiasm for the antiquities of London. 伯沙对伦敦的古迹产生了很大的热情。 来自辞典例句

8 antiquity   

n.古老；高龄；古物，古迹

参考例句：

• The museum contains the remains of Chinese antiquity.博物馆藏有中国古代的遗物。
• There are many legends about the heroes of antiquity.有许多关于古代英雄的传说。

9 controversy   

n.争论，辩论，争吵

参考例句：

• That is a fact beyond controversy.那是一个无可争论的事实。
• We ran the risk of becoming the butt of every controversy.我们要冒使自己在所有的纷争中都成为众矢之的的风险。

10 entirely   

ad.全部地，完整地；完全地，彻底地

参考例句：

• The fire was entirely caused by their neglect of duty. 那场火灾完全是由于他们失职而引起的。
• His life was entirely given up to the educational work. 他的一生统统献给了教育工作。

11 gender   

n.（生理上的）性，（名词、代词等的）性

参考例句：

• French differs from English in having gender for all nouns.法语不同于英语，所有的名词都有性。
• Women are sometimes denied opportunities solely because of their gender.妇女有时仅仅因为性别而无法获得种种机会。

12 depiction   

n.描述

参考例句：

• Double rhythms, resounding through the lyric depiction and connecting with each other, indicate the thespian place of mankind and the cognition of the writer to this thespian place. 这双重旋律互为表里，表明了人类的某种悲剧性处境以及作家对这种悲剧性处境的感受和认识。
• A realistic depiction of scenes from everyday domestic life. 日常家居生活的写实画。

13 depicted   

描绘，描画( depict的过去式和过去分词 )； 描述

参考例句：

• Other animals were depicted on the periphery of the group. 其他动物在群像的外围加以修饰。
• They depicted the thrilling situation to us in great detail. 他们向我们详细地描述了那激动人心的场面。

14 discourse   

n.论文，演说；谈话；话语；vi.讲述，著述

参考例句：

• We'll discourse on the subject tonight.我们今晚要谈论这个问题。
• He fell into discourse with the customers who were drinking at the counter.他和站在柜台旁的酒客谈了起来。

15 reclaim   

v.要求归还，收回；开垦

参考例句：

• I have tried to reclaim my money without success.我没能把钱取回来。
• You must present this ticket when you reclaim your luggage.当你要取回行李时，必须出示这张票子。

16 underlying   

adj.在下面的，含蓄的，潜在的

参考例句：

• The underlying theme of the novel is very serious.小说隐含的主题是十分严肃的。
• This word has its underlying meaning.这个单词有它潜在的含义。

17 Mediterranean   

adj.地中海的；地中海沿岸的

参考例句：

• The houses are Mediterranean in character.这些房子都属地中海风格。
• Gibraltar is the key to the Mediterranean.直布罗陀是地中海的要冲。

18 briefly   

adv.简单地，简短地

参考例句：

• I want to touch briefly on another aspect of the problem.我想简单地谈一下这个问题的另一方面。
• He was kidnapped and briefly detained by a terrorist group.他被一个恐怖组织绑架并短暂拘禁。

19 quotation   

n.引文，引语，语录；报价，牌价，行情

参考例句：

• He finished his speech with a quotation from Shakespeare.他讲话结束时引用了莎士比亚的语录。
• The quotation is omitted here.此处引文从略。

20 precarious   

adj.不安定的，靠不住的；根据不足的

参考例句：

• Our financial situation had become precarious.我们的财务状况已变得不稳定了。
• He earned a precarious living as an artist.作为一个艺术家，他过得是朝不保夕的生活。

21 continental   

adj.大陆的，大陆性的，欧洲大陆的

参考例句：

• A continental climate is different from an insular one.大陆性气候不同于岛屿气候。
• The most ancient parts of the continental crust are 4000 million years old.大陆地壳最古老的部分有40亿年历史。

22 gateway   

n.大门口，出入口，途径，方法

参考例句：

• Hard work is the gateway to success.努力工作是通往成功之路。
• A man collected tolls at the gateway.一个人在大门口收通行费。

23 fully   

adv.完全地，全部地，彻底地；充分地

参考例句：

• The doctor asked me to breathe in,then to breathe out fully.医生让我先吸气，然后全部呼出。
• They soon became fully integrated into the local community.他们很快就完全融入了当地人的圈子。

24 legacy   

n.遗产，遗赠；先人(或过去)留下的东西

参考例句：

• They are the most precious cultural legacy our forefathers left.它们是我们祖先留下来的最宝贵的文化遗产。
• He thinks the legacy is a gift from the Gods.他认为这笔遗产是天赐之物。