美国国家公共电台 NPR Michael Wolff Defends His Reporting Of New Trump Tell-All

 

STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:

Michael Wolff insists his second book on President Trump¹ is all true. His first, "Fire And Fury," described a dysfunctional White House. The president threatened to sue. Other journalists questioned Wolff's facts. But it was a huge seller. His second book is called "Siege: Trump Under Fire." Wolff no longer has the White House access that led to his first book but says he interviewed sources around the president. He also makes an explosive claim - special counsel Robert Mueller's office prepared a, quote, "draft indictment³ of the president." Mueller's spokesman denied that, only the second time Mueller ever denied a news story. So we went into our talk wondering what Wolff knows and how he knows it.

What do people who have spent a lot of time close to the president think of him?

MICHAEL WOLFF: They think he is vile⁴ and ludicrous.

INSKEEP: Ludicrous?

WOLFF: Ludicrous.

INSKEEP: What do you mean by that word?

WOLFF: I mean there's no logic⁵ to what he does. There's no way to anticipate what he's going to do. Often, what he ends up doing defies logic, defies everybody's expectations, defies explanation.

INSKEEP: When you hear this from people who've been around the president, is there a but anywhere? Do they say, I love this man, but?

WOLFF: There used to be. Remember - so I've done - this is my second book. This is effectively a sequel. I've spent the last three years pretty much non-stop talking about Donald Trump. And there used to be buts. There are no buts now. I might make a reservation for some of the most sycophantic⁶ people around him. But even they, if you push them a little, get to the vile and ludicrous pretty quickly.

INSKEEP: I'm thinking of a description attributed to a former senior White House official, Steve Bannon, describing the president the United States and the president of Russia, Putin and Trump, quote, "two narcissistic⁷, cult⁸ leader-type presidents. Both had populist talents, yet both were ultimately out for their own benefit." And then a key line here, I think - of the two, Putin was the far cleverer one. It sounds like even Steve Bannon, who did so much to promote the president's career, doesn't seem to think he's very bright.

WOLFF: Well, particularly Steve Bannon. And Steve appears throughout this book. And he's, to me, one of the fascinating figures of this moment, partly because he is so conflicted. It goes very deep, what Steve Bannon feels about Donald Trump. And it would be in part that he is vile and in part that he is ludicrous, but also in part - and maybe this is the but that you were looking for - that he is somehow magical at times. He somehow pulls the rabbit out of the hat when everyone would expect that he would not be able to.

INSKEEP: As has been widely reported already, you note that there was a draft indictment drawn⁹ up in the office of the special counsel that was looking into Russian interference and possible obstruction¹⁰ of justice by the president. What was that indictment?

WOLFF: Well, let me explain the document in my possession. It's a memorandum¹¹ of law. It assumes that the president has been indicted¹². It assumes that the president has gone into court and made a motion to dismiss the indictment on the grounds that a president cannot be indicted. And this is the response to that motion. And the document - it's a 56-page document - has two parts. The first part outlines all of the particulars of the indictment, hence my characterization of this as a draft indictment. And the second part is an argument - an incredibly powerful argument, by the way - about why the special counsel can in fact indict² a sitting president.

INSKEEP: I think I've learned something here. You're telling me that the Office of the Special Counsel was thinking through the eventualities - if we indict the president and if he says, I can't be indicted, here is our notional response. That is the document that's in your possession.

WOLFF: That is the document in my possession.

INSKEEP: Which might help to explain why the Office of the Special Counsel has said that the document described does not exist because you wrote in the book it was a, quote, "draft indictment," which sounds like something a little different.

WOLFF: Well, yeah. I guess it depends upon how you define a draft indictment. Yes. And I think it's very possible. I mean, the special counsel, when it responds, has become quite a gifted prevaricator¹³. It is quite possible that they responded accurately¹⁴ but that nevertheless this document exists and goes to trying to understand a very significant moment in the thinking of the special counsel.

INSKEEP: So the statement from Peter Carr, Robert Mueller's spokesman, is the documents described do not exist. You insist you have a document in your possession and maybe the difference here is on the word described. He thinks you described it wrong.

WOLFF: It is quite possible, yes.

INSKEEP: There is only one quote from this document in your book, and it is headlined, United States of America against Donald J. Trump, defendant¹⁵. Is that, every word of that, a quote?

WOLFF: Yes.

INSKEEP: In a legal document, wouldn't it be more normal to say, United States of America versus¹⁶ Donald J. Trump, defendant?

WOLFF: I, you know, can't tell you that. I know that this is precisely¹⁷ what it says. That's word for word.

INSKEEP: OK. What was your standard for sourcing? I mean, you must have heard a ton of things, and some of it, you decide, is hearsay¹⁸, and some of it, you don't believe and some of it you do believe. How did you decide what went in this book and what didn't make the cut?

WOLFF: Obviously, everything in this book is something that I concluded is accurate and true. That's a process of, do I trust my source? No. 1. And then I, you know, like to hear it a couple of times.

INSKEEP: I'm thinking of the famous Watergate stories by Woodward and Bernstein. It was said that their standard was they wanted to hear two sources. Was that your standard? Anything in here is by two sources?

WOLFF: Most everything in here is either by multiple sources or, in some cases, by someone I absolutely trust.

INSKEEP: Does the president talk to you anymore?

WOLFF: He does not.

INSKEEP: Did you ask, for this book?

WOLFF: I did not. And I think it's important to explain why - that Donald Trump, on my last book, tried to stop the publication of that.

INSKEEP: Sure.

WOLFF: So I decided¹⁹, in this instance, better not play with fire.

INSKEEP: Do you feel you've learned something about the president that you didn't know in the course of this book as opposed to the previous one?

WOLFF: That's a good question. When I went into the first book, I thought that there was some rationality about Donald Trump, a method to his madness. I no longer believe that.

INSKEEP: Is that more troubling to you than if he had a grand plan?

WOLFF: It is more troubling, yes. I mean, we might, in the end, be safer for it. You know, the narrative²⁰ when this administration began is that he was a right-wing despot and thug who would bring terrible policies to the United States. And I think there's probably less of a chance of that because everything shifts from moment to moment, and he has no grand intentions here. Whatever irrational²¹ moment he has now might as well be reversed by another irrational moment to come.

INSKEEP: Michael Wolff is the author of "Siege: Trump Under Fire." Thanks so much.

WOLFF: Thank you.

1 trump   

n.王牌，法宝；v.打出王牌，吹喇叭

参考例句：

• He was never able to trump up the courage to have a showdown.他始终鼓不起勇气摊牌。
• The coach saved his star player for a trump card.教练保留他的明星选手，作为他的王牌。

2 indict   

v.起诉，控告，指控

参考例句：

• You can't indict whole people for the crudeness of a few.您不能因少数人的粗暴行为就控诉整个民族。
• I can indict you for abducting high school student.我可以告你诱拐中学生。

3 indictment   

n.起诉；诉状

参考例句：

• He handed up the indictment to the supreme court.他把起诉书送交最高法院。
• They issued an indictment against them.他们起诉了他们。

4 vile   

adj.卑鄙的，可耻的，邪恶的；坏透的

参考例句：

• Who could have carried out such a vile attack?会是谁发起这么卑鄙的攻击呢？
• Her talk was full of vile curses.她的话里充满着恶毒的咒骂。

5 logic   

n.逻辑(学)；逻辑性

参考例句：

• What sort of logic is that?这是什么逻辑？
• I don't follow the logic of your argument.我不明白你的论点逻辑性何在。

6 sycophantic   

adj.阿谀奉承的

参考例句：

• Qinhui was a notorious sycophantic official in the Song dynasty,and was spurned by later generations.秦桧是宋代著名的佞臣，受尽后人的唾骂。
• We heard the sound of sycophantic laughter.我们听到了谄媚的笑声。

7 narcissistic   

adj.自我陶醉的，自恋的，自我崇拜的

参考例句：

• In the modern vocabulary, it was narcissistic. 用时髦话说，这是一种自我陶醉狂。 来自辞典例句
• This is our Nielaoshi, a dwarf has also grown narcissistic teachers. 这就是我们的倪老师，一个长得又矮又自恋的老师。 来自互联网

8 cult   

n.异教，邪教；时尚，狂热的崇拜

参考例句：

• Her books aren't bestsellers,but they have a certain cult following.她的书算不上畅销书，但有一定的崇拜者。
• The cult of sun worship is probably the most primitive one.太阳崇拜仪式或许是最为原始的一种。

9 drawn   

v.拖，拉，拔出；adj.憔悴的，紧张的

参考例句：

• All the characters in the story are drawn from life.故事中的所有人物都取材于生活。
• Her gaze was drawn irresistibly to the scene outside.她的目光禁不住被外面的风景所吸引。

10 obstruction   

n.阻塞，堵塞；障碍物

参考例句：

• She was charged with obstruction of a police officer in the execution of his duty.她被指控妨碍警察执行任务。
• The road was cleared from obstruction.那条路已被清除了障碍。

11 memorandum   

n.备忘录，便笺

参考例句：

• The memorandum was dated 23 August,2008.备忘录上注明的日期是2008年8月23日。
• The Secretary notes down the date of the meeting in her memorandum book.秘书把会议日期都写在记事本上。

12 indicted   

控告，起诉( indict的过去式和过去分词 )

参考例句：

• The senator was indicted for murder. 那位参议员被控犯谋杀罪。
• He was indicted by a grand jury on two counts of murder. 他被大陪审团以两项谋杀罪名起诉。

13 prevaricator   

n.推诿的人，撒谎的人

参考例句：

• He was not willingly a prevaricator, and hated thoroughly to make explanations concerning it. 他并不是个喜欢支吾其辞的人，而又讨厌就这事作任何解释。 来自英汉文学 - 嘉莉妹妹

14 accurately   

adv.准确地，精确地

参考例句：

• It is hard to hit the ball accurately.准确地击中球很难。
• Now scientists can forecast the weather accurately.现在科学家们能准确地预报天气。

15 defendant   

n.被告；adj.处于被告地位的

参考例句：

• The judge rejected a bribe from the defendant's family.法官拒收被告家属的贿赂。
• The defendant was borne down by the weight of evidence.有力的证据使被告认输了。

16 versus   

prep.以…为对手，对；与…相比之下

参考例句：

• The big match tonight is England versus Spain.今晚的大赛是英格兰对西班牙。
• The most exciting game was Harvard versus Yale.最富紧张刺激的球赛是哈佛队对耶鲁队。

17 precisely   

adv.恰好，正好，精确地，细致地

参考例句：

• It's precisely that sort of slick sales-talk that I mistrust.我不相信的正是那种油腔滑调的推销宣传。
• The man adjusted very precisely.那个人调得很准。

18 hearsay   

n.谣传，风闻

参考例句：

• They started to piece the story together from hearsay.他们开始根据传闻把事情的经过一点点拼湊起来。
• You are only supposing this on hearsay.You have no proof.你只是根据传闻想像而已，并没有证据。

19 decided   

adj.决定了的，坚决的；明显的，明确的

参考例句：

• This gave them a decided advantage over their opponents.这使他们比对手具有明显的优势。
• There is a decided difference between British and Chinese way of greeting.英国人和中国人打招呼的方式有很明显的区别。

20 narrative   

n.叙述，故事；adj.叙事的，故事体的

参考例句：

• He was a writer of great narrative power.他是一位颇有记述能力的作家。
• Neither author was very strong on narrative.两个作者都不是很善于讲故事。

21 irrational   

adj.无理性的，失去理性的

参考例句：

• After taking the drug she became completely irrational.她在吸毒后变得完全失去了理性。
• There are also signs of irrational exuberance among some investors.在某些投资者中是存在非理性繁荣的征象的。