美国国家公共电台 NPR Trump Accuser Says She 'Jumped Out' Of Her Skin During Debate（在线收听）

Trump Accuser Says She 'Jumped Out' Of Her Skin During Debate

play pause stop mute unmute max volume 00:0008:46repeat repeat off Update Required To play the media you will need to either update your browser to a recent version or update your Flash plugin. AUDIE CORNISH, HOST: 

We're going to hear now from Jessica Leeds. This week she told The New York Times that Trump groped her when she was sitting next to him on a plane more than 30 years ago. I spoke with her earlier today via Skype.

Jessica Leeds, thank you for talking with ALL THINGS CONSIDERED.

JESSICA LEEDS: Thank you.

CORNISH: Now, you've described this episode as not being a short one. Your recollection is that it lasted about 15 minutes. Can you tell us how it started?

LEEDS: I was reseated into first class from the coach section on a flight into New York, and the gentleman sitting in the other seat introduced himself as Donald Trump. I introduced myself. We chatted. It was very cordial. They served a dinner.

After the dinner was cleared, he began encroaching on my side of the seat. I don't remember what happened to the armrest. It - whether it got pulled out or whether it was folded up, I don't remember. But I do know that Mr. Trump started coming over to me and groping me. And then his hands started going up my skirt.

Whether it was 15 minutes or not, it seemed like forever. But I got up at that point and took my purse and went back to the coach section.

CORNISH: While this was happening, was he saying anything to you? I mean what were you thinking when he started this?

LEEDS: No. I didn't say anything. I don't recall saying no. I don't recall saying stop. I don't recall saying anything. And he didn't say anything. It was like a silent pantomime. I remember at one point looking over at the guy in the - on the seat across the aisle, and his eyes were like bugging out of his head. And the stewardess was nowhere to be found.

CORNISH: In the immediate aftermath of this incident, did you feel like you could tell anyone what had happened?

LEEDS: It never occurred to me to tell anyone. It never occurred to me to complain to the airlines. It never occurred to me to complain to my boss. It was, to be frank, not that uncommon. If I had complained, my boss I think would have said, look; that's part of the job. You've got to take care of yourself there. There was no mechanism for making complaints, say, like human resources. This just wasn't done. You just accepted it.

CORNISH: At the same time you describe this as being very jarring. You described the passenger nearby you saying, you know - his eyes bugging out of his head. It sounds like this wasn't that common, that this was an egregious moment.

LEEDS: Well, this was an egregious moment because it was like somewhat a public space. And I just felt so exposed. And I'm a fairly tall woman. I felt that for the most part I could take care of myself physically. But he was very strong and very difficult.

So, yes, it really rattled me. It rattled me enough so that I waited until everybody was off the airlines before I left. I didn't want to take the chance of running into him at all.

CORNISH: In the last year, you shared this story with your son, other family and close friends. And it's been reported in The Times that when one of your friends suggested you go to the media with this story, that you resisted. And this was many decades later, right? This was during the Republican primary. What held you back from speaking out?

LEEDS: The time - that it had been so long ago, the usual, well, it's a he said, she said situation. And there were so many stories coming out that were much more current. And I thought that that would have more impact than what I had to say.

CORNISH: What was it about those reports, about those other women's stories that triggered something in you?

LEEDS: What triggered my response was the tapes that came out on that Friday and then the debate where Anderson Cooper asked point-blank to Donald Trump had he groped or touched somebody inappropriately. I forget how he asked the question. But Mr. Trump answered no.

CORNISH: Mrs. Leeds, we have a clip of that audio and specifically this exchange between CNN anchor Anderson Cooper and Donald Trump. Here it is.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

ANDERSON COOPER: Just for the record though, are you saying that what you said on that bus 11 years ago - that you did not actually kiss women without consent or grope women without consent?

DONALD TRUMP: I have great respect for women. Nobody has more respect for women than I do.

COOPER: So for the record...

TRUMP: I said...

COOPER: ...You're saying you never did that?

TRUMP: I said things that - frankly, you hear these things I said. And I was embarrassed by it. But I have tremendous respect for women.

COOPER: Have you ever done those things?

TRUMP: And women have respect for me. And I will tell you, no I have not.

CORNISH: Jessica Leeds, how did you react to that exchange when you heard it?

LEEDS: That's the exchange where I found myself on my feet yelling at the TV, saying, he's lying. Maybe he's convinced himself, but he is lying. And the next morning when I got some emails from friends who had heard the story. And they all said, oh, really, you should write up. And I was so pissed at that point that I wrote a letter to the editor of The Times. And that's how this all got started.

CORNISH: Now, Mr. Trump has responded to your story, calling it a total fabrication. He's calling the allegations against him smears. Here he is speaking.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

TRUMP: Now today, the same two discredited writers who should have been fired from The New York Times for what they did tell another totally fabricated and false story that supposedly took place on an airplane more than 30 years ago - another ridiculous tale, no witnesses, no nothing.

CORNISH: Jessica Leeds, your response to that?

LEEDS: I recognize the fact that it was that many years ago. And it would be impossible to find the people like the guy sitting across the aisle. And it is basically I said, he said, so that's why I thought the stories, the more current stories, would have much more impact. But for some reason this has created somewhat of a firestorm.

CORNISH: You've said that you're a Hillary Clinton supporter. And what is your response to Donald Trump and his backers who don't believe you precisely because of the timing so close to Election Day?

LEEDS: It was the second debate that put the fire in my belly to get this story out. That's true. I am a Hillary supporter not as much as I think now I probably should be, I have not actively campaigned for her. I've not contributed more than five bucks to get a button. But I'm not politically active at all.

So they're trying to see some sort of connection, and there is none. I have not talked to the - Clinton's people. They have not tried to contact me. They've been (laughter) quiet for me.

CORNISH: In the end, how do you hope that coming forward will make some kind of difference? Is this about women in the culture? Is this about the election? What is this about for you coming forward now?

LEEDS: Well, now, it would be good if we could address these sexual issues and try to improve them. But, yes, too, this election is very important. It would be very difficult to think of four years of Donald Trump presidency.

CORNISH: Well, Jessica Leeds, thank you for taking the time to speak with us.

LEEDS: You're welcome.

CORNISH: That was Jessica Leeds. She's alleged that Donald Trump groped her more than 30 years ago after she was seated next to him on an airplane. We reached out to the Trump campaign for comment but have not heard back.