美国国家公共电台 NPR Rosenstein Denies That He Discussed Recording Trump, Invoking 25th Amendment（在线收听）

ARI SHAPIRO, HOST:

And now we're joined by NPR national justice correspondent Carrie Johnson. Hi, Carrie.

CARRIE JOHNSON, BYLINE: Hi, Ari.

SHAPIRO: You followed Rosenstein for years since he was the U.S. attorney in Baltimore. Is this account in character for him?

JOHNSON: Well, he's really not known as being a brazen or a mercurial guy. It's true he was very shaken after the firing of FBI director Jim Comey last year. That's when his memo criticizing Comey was cited as a justification by the White House. Rosenstein pushed back on that at the time. Remember, the president went on to tell NBC News he fired Comey because of the Russia thing. Now that whole episode is a central part of the ongoing special counsel inquiry. And of course, Rod Rosenstein is the one who appointed the special counsel last year.

SHAPIRO: I know you've been speaking with people close to Rosenstein today. What are you hearing?

JOHNSON: Yeah. I got hold of a guy named Jim Trusty, former prosecutor, who's known Rod Rosenstein for 15 years. Here's his reaction.

JIM TRUSTY: I can't imagine a circumstance where he seriously suggested wearing a wire in dealing with the president.

JOHNSON: Indeed, one person in the room for the conversation reported by The Times is telling reporters Rosenstein made that remark, but it was sarcastic, that it was like a dark joke or black humor. Preet Bharara, the U.S. attorney in New York - former U.S. attorney in New York, tweeted that jokes about wiring people up in prosecutor circles are as common as knock knock jokes. And as for stirring up conversation about the 25th Amendment, Jim Trusty says Rod Rosenstein's a good lawyer who once wanted to be a judge. The 25th Amendment is reserved for cases where the president is totally incapacitated, Jim Trusty says.

TRUSTY: And I also don't doubt for a moment that Rod knows that whatever you think of President Trump, we're nowhere close to a situation where you can legitimately suggest the 25th Amendment's going to kick in.

SHAPIRO: And what has the reaction been from people close to the White House?

JOHNSON: Ari, it's been fast and furious. The president's son, Donald Trump Jr., tweeted almost immediately after this Time story came out that he was shocked - oh, who are we kidding at this point, Jr. said. No one is shocked that these guys would do anything in their power to undermine Donald Trump. And Laura Ingraham, the Fox News host who was mentioned for several top White House jobs last year, tweeted that Rod Rosenstein must be fired today. Congressman Jim Jordan, a close ally of President Trump, is demanding to see some of these memos described in The Times story and other documents so we can judge for ourselves.

Now, Democrats in - on Capitol Hill have a very different reaction. Chuck Schumer, the top Democrat in the Senate, says this story must not be used as a pretext for the corrupt purpose of firing Rod Rosenstein and installing an official who'll allow the president to interfere in the special counsel probe.

SHAPIRO: What would happen if Rosenstein, who oversees the special counsel probe, were fired?

JOHNSON: This would be the disaster scenario that so many Democrats and even some Republicans in Congress have been warning about for months. Remember, the Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell was imploring the president to wait to get rid of Attorney General Jeff Sessions or Rosenstein until after the November midterm elections. Rosenstein is the day-to-day supervisor of the special counsel team.

Remember, in the last few weeks there's been a flurry of activity - conviction of Paul Manafort in Virginia, a guilty plea by Paul Manafort, Trump's former campaign chairman, in D.C. with an agreement to cooperate, the sentencing of former campaign adviser George Papadopoulos. And the president's former lawyer Michael Cohen has been meeting with the special counsel too.

So the timing of this report on Rod Rosenstein is weird. If he goes, it may not be enough to derail the whole Russia probe. Remember that the Justice Department has been doling out pieces of this investigation to the U.S. attorney in the Southern District of New York and elsewhere. So even if Rosenstein goes, this investigation may continue.

SHAPIRO: NPR national Justice correspondent Carrie Johnson. Thank you.

JOHNSON: My pleasure.