PBS高端访谈:剖析《挪威7·22 爆炸枪击案》电影（在线收听）

Judy Woodruff: Our fall films series continues with a report on "22 July" about the events and aftermath of the deadliest attack in Norway since World War II. Jeffrey Brown has our look.

Jeffrey Brown: July 22, 2011, 32-year-old Norwegian Anders Breivik has set off a bomb at a government building in Oslo and now, posing as a policeman, prepares an even more gruesome act.

Actor: You heard about the bomb in the city?

Actress: Yes.

Actor: I have been sent to secure the island. Where's the ferry?

Actress: Oh, the ferry got canceled.

Actor: Get it over here. I need it now.

Jeffrey Brown: The film "22 July" is a dramatization of a real-life horror story, a right-wing fanatic's massacre of young people gathered on an island for a summer retreat. Seventy-seven were killed in the attacks, more than 200 wounded. They left a nation shocked to its core, and the world wondering where it might lead next.

Actor: This was an attack on our government and on our children. We are a long way from understanding why. But what is clear is that our nation has been attacked by someone who would see it changed.

Jeffrey Brown: British director Paul Greengrass ties it to a larger, ongoing rise of the extreme right in Europe and the U.S.

Paul Greengrass: I have got children. And I think that this is an issue that young people are going to have to resolve. They're going to have to choose how to respond to these immense forces and fight for the kinds of democracies that they want to live in. And, you know, these changes can be explored through journalism or history or documentary, but they also need to be explored through our cinema. It's very, very important, I think, that we don't close our eyes to what's going on in the world, and we don't close our cinema to it either.

Jeffrey Brown: Greengrass is widely known as a director of action-packed thrillers, including three of the Jason Bourne movies. He's also taken on recent political events that have shaken and shaped the world, such as his "United 93," about the September 11 attacks. Here, he gives us a gut-wrenching and up-close view of a man acting out his belief that Muslims and other outsiders, aided by liberal elites, are poisoning his society, and then the aftermath: an ideologue and inevitably a nation on trial. Greengrass says his first duty was to those personally impacted.

Paul Greengrass: The film that I wanted to make wasn't about the attacks themselves. It's about what happened afterwards. It's about how the people of Norway and the particular characters that we portray and the survivors of those attacks fought for their democracy. That's the story.

Jeffrey Brown: The film is based on the 2016 book by journalist Asne Seierstad titled "One of Us." She joined Greengrass for the screening at the Toronto International Film Festival.

Asne Seierstad: It speaks to your emotions and your heart, but also to your mind, because it's also a very intellectual film, in the sense that you actually do get to explore the mind of the mass murderer, the terrorist. And I think the audience is sitting and thinking, OK, is he mad or is he one of us?

Jeffrey Brown: In the film, as in real life, Breivik had his day in court. But the emphasis here is on the survivors, like 17-year-old Viljar Hanssen, played by Jonas Strand Gravli, who confronted Breivik at the trial.

Actress: Just say a few words, that's all.

Jonas Strand Gravli: And say what?

Actress: What happened. The truth.

Jonas Strand Gravli: That I cry in my sleep? That I can't talk to strangers? That I'm frightened of dying? I would rather not go than let him hear that.

Jeffrey Brown: In August 2012, Anders Breivik was judged to be sane and guilty of the mass murders. He will likely spend the rest of his life in prison.

Paul Greengrass: I came to the view that he was, as the court found, a political actor, a political extremist, a right-wing extremist. But the film has to show how the process of coming to terms with him was to explore the family background, you know, whether or not he was sane or psychotic.

Jeffrey Brown: One of the interesting things about this film and the trial itself, the actual story, is how much of a platform to give him.

Paul Greengrass: I definitely thought about how Norway faced that challenge, whether or not to give him a platform, was the correct one. They came to the view, in the legal process, that it was important that he be allowed to speak. If we close our minds and eyes to that, it's not going to go away. It'll get worse. We have to, and the democracies of the West have to win this battle of ideas. And we're only going to win that battle of ideas by acknowledging what the arguments are from the far-right side, what that worldview is.

Jeffrey Brown: "22 July" is available on Netflix, with a limited theatrical release as well. For the "PBS NewsHour," I'm Jeffrey Brown at the Toronto International Film Festival.

朱迪·伍德拉夫：秋季电影系列将继续跟进《挪威7·22 爆炸枪击案》的报道，这部影片讲述了二战后挪威遭受致命袭击期间的事情以及其后的余波。请听杰弗里·布朗发回的报道。

杰弗里·布朗：2011年7月22日，32岁的挪威人安德斯·布雷维克在奥斯陆的政府办公楼处引爆了一枚炸弹。而现在，他乔装成了警察，准备进行更为可怕的行动。

男演员：您听说城市里发生的爆炸案了吗？

女演员：听说了啊。

男演员：我被派来保护这座岛的安全，渡船在哪里呢

女演员：哦，渡船已经取消了。

男演员：把船带过来，我现在要用。

杰弗里·布朗：影片《挪威7·22 爆炸枪击案》是现实恐怖故事的戏剧版，是一名右翼的狂热分子对来岛上避暑的年轻人们进行的大屠杀。77人在袭击中遇害，200多人受伤。这次事件让全国上下震惊不已，整个世界都在观望挪威的下一步举措。

男演员：这是对我国政府和儿童的袭击。我们估计很久之后都不会明白其中的缘由。但有一点很清楚：我们的国家受到了某个人的袭击，而这个人想看到我们国家的改变。

杰弗里·布朗：英国导演保罗·格林格拉斯将这次事件与欧美极右势力更大范围的崛起联系在了一起。

保罗·格林格拉斯：我自己也是几个孩子的爸爸。我认为这个问题需要年轻人来解决。年轻人要来抉择如何回应这些强劲的势力，以及如何为他们向往的民主生活而抗争。而且虽然这些变革需要通过新闻工作、历史或者纪录片来进行探索，但也依然需要通过影片来进行探索。我觉得，很重要的一点是：我们不要对世界上正在发生的事情充耳不闻，我们也要时刻记得记录。

杰弗里·布朗：众所周知，保罗·格林格拉斯的动作片剧情惊险、动人心弦，其中包括3部《谍影重重》系列电影。他本人最近也牵涉到一些政治活动之中，震惊了世界，也让世界发生了改变。其中就包括与9/11事件有关的联航93。在这部硬盘中，他让观众近距离看到了一个极度痛苦的男子，他把自己的信仰展现的淋漓尽致，即穆斯林人等外界的人，在自由主义精英的帮助下，破坏了穆斯林社会，这样做的后果是：空想家受到了审判，当然，整个国家也不可避免地要受到审判。格林格拉斯表示，他的首要职责是帮助本身受到影响的人们。

保罗·格林格拉斯：我想做的这部电影并不只是跟袭击本身有关，还跟袭击后的余波有关。也就是：挪威人、特定的几个人物、袭击的幸存者会怎样为民主而抗争，这是我想展现的内容。

杰弗里·布朗：该电影以2016年记者阿斯尼·塞尔斯塔德的书《我们中的一人》为蓝本。该记者也出席了多伦多国际电影节的放映典礼。

阿斯尼·塞尔斯塔德：这部电影会触动人的感情和内心，跟人的灵魂说话，因为这也是一部关乎理智的电影。从某种程度来说，通过这部电影，可以探寻大肆杀戮者和恐怖分子的内心世界。我认为，观影的时候，观众也会思考：是恐怖分子疯了，还是其实大家都疯了？

杰弗里·布朗：在这部影片中，布雷维克跟在现实生活中一样走进了法庭。但他的关注点却在幸存者身上，比如17岁的汉森（由乔纳斯·斯特兰德饰演），他与布雷维克对峙公堂。

女演员：说点什么吧，仅此而已。

乔纳斯·斯特兰德：说什么呢？

女演员：说发生了什么，说实话。

乔纳斯·斯特兰德：要说我在睡梦中哭醒，从此不敢跟陌生人说话吗？要说我怕死吗？如果要说这些让他听到的话，我宁愿不去。

杰弗里·布朗：2012年8月，安德斯·布雷维克被判定为神智健全，他要为大规模屠杀负责，所以他的余生可能都要在监狱中度过。

保罗·格林格拉斯：我认为，他就是法庭判定的那样，是一名政治行动者、政治激进分子、右翼激进分子。但这部影片也必须要展现出一件事，那就是：跟他相处的过程其实就是了解他家庭背景的过程，就是知道他是神智健全还是精神病的过程。

杰弗里·布朗：关于这部电影、其中的审判以及真实的故事有几点有意思的事情，那就是：要给他多大的平台。

保罗·格林格拉斯：无论是否给他一个平台，我当然都认同挪威处理那次危机的方式是正确的。他们认为，走法律程序并让他开口讲话是很重要的。如果我们拒绝倾听和观察，这种情况就永远不会结束，只会更加糟糕。我们乃至整个西方世界必须赢取意识形态的胜利。而赢取这场胜利的前提是：认可右翼势力的论点和世界观。

杰弗里·布朗：《挪威7·22 爆炸枪击案》在网飞公司的平台上已经可以观看了，各剧院也有限量放映。感谢收看《新闻一小时》。这里是杰弗里·布朗为您从多伦多国际电影节发回的报道。