PBS高端访谈:加州宣取消现金保释（在线收听）

JUDY WOODRUFF: The state of California took a landmark step toward criminal justice reform today, as Governor Jerry Brown signed a bill that would eliminate cash bail for those awaiting trial. Marisa Lagos of public television station KQED has been covering the story, and she joins me now. Marisa Lagos, welcome. So, just quickly, who was behind this effort? And what exactly would this new law do?

MARISA LAGOS, KQED: Well, this is a change that was backed by the governor, the chief justice of the court system here, and a majority of the legislature, as well as some criminal justice groups. It would basically eliminate cash bail as of October 19 and replace it with a system that gives judges a lot more discretion. They would be guided by risk assessment tools that would decide whether someone's a low, medium or high risk for release. But, ultimately, unless somebody was a misdemeanor defendant, in which case they would be automatically released, or very high-risk or facing a violent felony, the judges would really make that call. And so it has been controversial. Some people think it's giving judges too much power.

JUDY WOODRUFF: So, again, this would apply to in all criminal accusation, criminal allegations?

MARISA LAGOS: That's right. I mean, this is a huge sea change. We have seen some other changes and other states that doesn't go this far. But, basically, as of next fall, if you're arrested for a crime in California, cash bail will not be on the table. It will entirely be up to that court.

And there could be, of course, conditions, say, an ankle monitor, probation oversight. But the idea is that most low-risk and medium-risk defendants would get out and would be allowed to continue with their jobs and their families while they await trial.

JUDY WOODRUFF: So, tell us more, Marisa, about the opposition to it, and what that's based on.

MARISA LAGOS: Yes, so I mean, the bail industry has opposed this from the beginning, of course, for financial reasons. But in the last few weeks, as this final compromise bill was revealed, the ACLU and some other groups who have really pushed for this reform said they are going to oppose it.

They think that this is going to actually result in more people being detained pretrial, and they have concerns about biases that exists within the court system. For example, a judge may look at an African-American defendant differently than a white defendant, based on their own biases, maybe some that they're aware of, or that these risk assessment tools, which use algorithms to look at somebody's criminal history, their job history, what they're facing this time, that those could have problems. And so we did see the ACLU come off of this bill. Interestingly, law enforcement, which had opposed earlier versions, is neutral. And so that is sort of a flip of who the opponents are, although I think it's important to say that there are still some criminal justice groups that pushed this that remain in support.

JUDY WOODRUFF: So, just quickly, Marisa, going forward, California often leads the country in legal measures and steps that it's taking, but is this expected to be challenged in the courts?

MARISA LAGOS: It is. I talked to the American Bail Coalition today. They believe that this requires a change to the state constitution, and that it can't be done legislatively, the way it was. And, but, as you said, this is very sweeping. It goes further than any other state has gone. And so I think we would expect any change like that to end up being challenged.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Marisa Lagos of KQED public television, thank you very much.

MARISA LAGOS: Thanks, Judy.

朱迪·伍德拉夫：加州今天在刑法改革方面实现了里程碑式的进展，因为州长杰瑞·布朗签署了一份法案，禁止现金保释尚未庭审的人。旧金山公共广播电台的玛丽莎·拉各斯一直在跟进这件事，今天他也加入了我们的节目。玛丽莎·拉各斯，欢迎你。那么，我们快速进入正题吧：谁是幕后推手呢？这项新法案有什么效力呢？

玛丽莎·拉各斯，旧金山公共广播电台：这项变革是州长支持的，支持该法案的还有加州法院系统的首席法官、绝大多数议员、多个刑法组织。该法案将从10月19日开始禁止现金保释的方式，取而代之的是另一个给法官们更多裁量权的体系。法官将有风险评估工具做指导，后者可以判定释放某人的风险等级。除非某人罪行很轻，可以自动释放；除非释放某人的风险很高或者其犯有暴力重罪。否则，将由法官做最终决定。所以这就很有争议性了。有些人认为该体系给了法官太大的权力。

朱迪·伍德拉夫：所以，该法案适用于所有犯罪指控，也就是刑事指控吗？

玛丽莎·拉各斯：没错，也就是说，这会是一种巨大的变革。我们已经见证了其他的一些改变，其他州也没有走得如此前卫。但情况基本上是这样：明年秋天的时候，如果某人因刑事犯罪而在加州被捕，那么现金保释将不再有效。是否能保释完全取决于法庭。当然了，有一些情况是需要脚腕带监视仪和查验监督的。但该法案的基本思路是：大多数低风险或中等风险的被告可以保释出狱，在等候庭审期间也可以正常工作以及与家人团聚。

朱迪·伍德拉夫：那么，玛丽莎是否可以向我们进一步介绍该法案的反对者意见以及他们的论据。

玛丽莎·拉各斯：好的，我想说的是，反对方从一开始就很坚决，原因是财务问题。但在过去的几周里，随着这份经过折中的最终版法案问世以来，本来是倡导这项变革的美国公民自由协会等组织却表示会反对这项法案。他们认为，这会导致很多人在等候庭审期间处于被监禁的状态，他们担心法庭体系中会有偏见存在。比如，法官看待白人被告和黑人被告的眼光可能不同，就算他们同为非裔美国人。这是因为法官会基于自己的偏见看问题，这可能是他们并未意识到的；也有可能这些风险评估工具会出现问题，因为他们是用算法来看待某人的犯罪历史、工作历史、当前状态的，所以这就可能出现问题。所以，美国公民自由协会确实是反对这项法案的。有趣的是，之前本来持反对意见的执法机构现在却持中立态度了。所以反对方的组成阵营一直在变化，虽然有一些支持者始终坚如磐石。

朱迪·伍德拉夫：玛丽莎，我们可否用快速讨论一下：在法律措施方面，加州一直都屈指可数，但加州的这些举措是否会遭到法院的反对呢？

玛丽莎·拉各斯：会的。今天，我采访了美国保释联盟的工组人员。他们认为，需要对加州宪法做出变更，这件事光靠法案的推出是做不成的。不过，正如您所言，此事的波及速度很快，传播的进度比其他任何州都要快。所以我觉得这样的变革是会受到质疑和反对的。

朱迪·伍德拉夫：以上是旧金山公共广播电台玛丽莎·拉各斯发回的报道，感谢收听。

玛丽莎·拉各斯：谢谢朱迪。