PBS高端访谈:密西西比大突袭行动（在线收听）

Hari Sreenivasan: Officials are calling the Immigration and Customs Enforcement raid of several Mississippi food processing plants this week one of the largest enforcement acts in recent U.S. history. Nationally raids like this have detained and deported thousands of suspected undocumented immigrants. And ICE says they are also stepping up criminal investigations against the individuals and companies that employ them. Adolfo Flores is National Security Correspondent for Immigration at BuzzFeed News. He joins me now from McAllen, Texas. Tell me a little bit about the disparity here. We saw the raids, we saw the people being handcuffed and marched away. Those were mostly the workers. What happened to the employers?

Adolfo Flores: So far nothing has happened. The employer which is something that immigrant advocates are pointing out is 680 people were detained hundreds of them are still in ICE custody and the bathroom or the employers who hired them having been detained or really face any consequences yet.

Hari Sreenivasan: So why is that?

Adolfo Flores: The law is around this, was was written is, employers aren't breaking the law by hiring undocumented workers. What happens is if they are found to be in violation of the law it's because they knowingly hired undocumented workers. It's a knowingly that's tough to prove for prosecutors. And so that takes more time and not only more time it makes it harder for them to prosecute. So some people would say that the immigrants are the low hanging fruit whereas the employers are tougher to get and more often than not they don't really face any criminal charges, fines if anything.

Hari Sreenivasan: What are the advantages that an employer has to hire undocumented workers?

Adolfo Flores: I mean just that they are you know they're cheap, you don't have to pay them as much. But there's also the fact that they may be less inclined to complain or if their wages are being taken away, an undocumented worker is not going to feel as empowered as someone who has papers to go and file a complaint. And so you know cheaper cost and then the other side of that is what makes them more appealing to employers.

Hari Sreenivasan: So there have been databases to try to keep track of this gap between how many employees or undocumented immigrants or are arrested versus employers. When you go back and look back and forth not just at this rate what do we find?

Adolfo Flores: What happens is a lot of the employees you know don't use documents that aren't theirs but they're still valid numbers. And so the employer will run them through E-Verify and they'll say you know we did everything that we possibly could to verify that these employees were here and they were able to legally work. So if it's hard to prove that you know. And it's also easy for people to get into the system and not raise any red flag.

Hari Sreenivasan: In the past couple of years how many employers you think have been either convicted or well, arrested or in any way kind of brought to justice about this?

Adolfo Flores: There was an analysis done by TRAC at Syracuse University that looked at the number of prosecutions against employers and they found that from April 28 to March 29 of 2019 only 11 individuals not companies were prosecuted for hiring undocumented workers. At the same time during that period more than 120,000 undocumented immigrants were charged for illegal entry or illegal reentry. So that's pretty stark when you look at those numbers.

Hari Sreenivasan: All right. Adolfo Flores from BuzzFeed News is joining us via Skype from McAllan, Texas tonight. Thanks so much.

Adolfo Flores: Thank you.

哈里·斯里尼瓦桑：移民和海关执法局（ICE）本周突袭了密西西比州的几个食物处理厂，一些工作人员说，这次突袭是美国最近历史上最大的一次执法行动。从全国范围来看，与这次类似的突袭已经逮捕并放逐了数千名尚未记录在案的嫌疑移民。ICE表示，他们正在加紧对雇佣这样移民的个人和公司进行刑事调查。阿道夫是BuzzFeed新闻关于移民事务的国家安全记者。他今晚从德克萨斯州的麦卡伦与我们进行了连线。你可以介绍一下这里的不同情况吗？我们看到了突袭的发生，也看到有人被架上了手铐游行。这些人基本都是工人。他们发生什么了呢？

阿道夫：目前为止，什么都没发生。移民倡导者指出，有680人被逮捕。其中数百人依然被ICE拘留，但雇佣他们的人没有受到逮捕或者面临任何后果。

哈里·斯里尼瓦桑：为什么会如此呢？

阿道夫：有与此相关的法律写道，雇主雇佣未记录在案的工人是不违反法律的。除非他们在明知道是未记录在案工人的情况下还选择雇佣他们，这就是违法行为了。但是检察官很难证明雇主是否知情。这会花费更多的时间，而且也会加剧工作难度。有些人会觉得，移民是比比皆是的廉价劳动力，但雇主是少有的。但通常情况是：他们不会真地面临刑事控告或者罚款。

哈里·斯里尼瓦桑：雇佣这样的移民对于雇主来说有什么好处呢？

阿道夫：我是说，他们是廉价劳动力，不需要支付很多薪水给他们。但是也有一个事实存在——他们不太可能会抱怨，或者工资不给也没招儿。未记录在案的工人没有得到赋权，不会像有些人那样可以拿着一纸公文去起诉。所以，他们不只是廉价劳动力，从上述方面来看，他们对雇主很有吸引力。

哈里·斯里尼瓦桑：有大数据库在跟踪记录这一鸿沟，记录雇主和未记录在案的移民被逮捕的比例。如果回顾这一比例会发现什么呢？

阿道夫：事实是，很多雇主不会使用文件来记录自己的雇佣情况，但这些也都是真实存在的数据。雇主会通过电子方式确认，他们会说我们尽可能地证实了雇员的身份以及他们可合法工作的身份。但这是很难证明的。进入系统很容易，不需要举红旗。

哈里·斯里尼瓦桑：过去几年里，你知道有什么雇主被定罪、逮捕或者被追究责任吗？

阿道夫：锡拉丘兹大学的TRAC做了一项分析，观察了雇主受起诉的数据。他们发现，2018年4月28-2019年3月29之间，只有11名个人或者公司因雇佣这样的移民而被定罪。与此同时，在这期间，12万多名未记录在案的移民被控非法进入美国。这个数字看起来是很惊人的。

哈里·斯里尼瓦桑：好的，感谢BuzzFeed记者阿道夫通过Skype与我们连线。

阿道夫：谢谢大家。