PBS高端访谈:邮件曝光给乌克兰的军事援助（在线收听）

Yamiche Alcindor: This weekend, new information about the administration's hold on military aid to Ukraine emerged late Friday as part of a Freedom of Information Act request. A court ordered e mails released related to millions of dollars of aid. One of those emails shows that an Office of Management and Budget official requested that funds be held up less than two hours after President Trump's phone call with Ukraine's president on July 25th. A spokesperson for OMB defended the move. She said it would be "reckless" to tie the hold to the phone call. For more on this story and reaction to the impeachment of the president, POLITICO reporter Anita Kumar joins us from Washington, D.C.. Thanks so much for being here, Anita. How much do these emails matter, given that lawmakers seem pretty dug in on their on their sides?

Anita Kumar: I do think they matter because what you're seeing is, Democrats immediately saying you know, that they want to know more about this, that they want to have witnesses at the Senate impeachment trial. And if you'll recall, that's the thing that we're going to be debating for the next two weeks over the holidays is, should there be witnesses at a trial? Should there be a real Senate trial? And this is just what Democrats need to say, yes, we need more than just a quick trial with no witnesses on either side.

Yamiche Alcindor: You've been reporting about how President Trump is handling being impeached. Last night, he spoke surprisingly little about impeachment at a youth rally in Florida. Tell me a little bit about the range of emotions that President Trump is going through as he processes being impeached.

Anita Kumar: Sure. I mean, we have heard from people that have talked to him in the last week that he's feeling everything you might feel — really anger and frustration, which we've seen him express in tweets and in speeches, but also, surprise, even though he knew it was coming, it was sort of a surprise that it actually happened. And then surprise, really a lot of surprise, at the House holding onto the articles of impeachment. That move really surprised him. He's not sure what to make of it. He was calling around to Capitol Hill and asking members of Congress what they thought of this move. Obviously, Republican members of Congress and they didn't really know either. So he's been sort of feeling all of those things. But the one thing that we have been hearing is that he's just very angry. He's just very, very angry to raw anger and that it's just not going to go away and that he's sort of turn that anger into energy, that he is going to get reelected. He's going to work hard on that. And that's where all of his energy is going right now.

Yamiche Alcindor: Well, one of the things that the president is also angry about is this editor of Christianity Today, writing that he is morally lost and confused. So how much is that Evangelical magazine's editorial show, cracks in the president's base or it doesn't not really matter that much?

Anita Kumar: I mean, so far it's only been a couple days, it doesn't seem to show much of the crack. I mean, it's one article, one editorial with less than hundred thousand subscribers. But the president really reacted strongly to that and I think it's because, obviously evangelicals, they don't all vote the same way, but that's a very strong part of his base. And it's a lot of people and he really needs to keep the base as he is going into reelection. And I think, you know, he was, as we just talked about. He's angry this week. And that kind of set him off. I had talked to people who were surprised at how angry he got, you know, lashing out on Twitter and comment. And they thought, well, he's overreacting to something that's not probably going to cascade into something else. But I think that just goes to show sort of the emotions he's feeling this week.

Yamiche Alcindor: And we only have about a minute left. But I want to talk to you really briefly about the economy. The president was talking about how well the markets are going. How much do we think that that's going to factor into the president's 2020 campaign now that we're really close to that starting?

Anita Kumar: Republicans hope it is the entire campaign. They think that if the president talks about the economy, period, he can win reelection. But the president's problem is the goes off and talks about 20 other things. So if he can stick to the economy, trade some of these other things, the stock market, he would probably be in pretty good shape.

Yamiche Alcindor: Well, thank you so much, Anita Kumar of POLITICO.

Anita Kumar: Thank you.

阿尔辛多：特朗普政府叫停了对乌克兰的军事援助。本周末，关于此事的最新消息出现在周五晚些时候，这是《信息自由法案》的部分内容。某法庭下令发布数封与数百万美元援助有关的邮件。其中一封邮件显示，管理与预算办公室（OMB）的工作人员要求资金冻结，而当天不到2小时前，特朗普跟乌克兰总统曾通过话。那一天是7月25日。OMB的发言人为这个举动辩护。她说将资金冻结和这个电话联系起来是鲁莽的行为。关于更多有关总统弹劾的报道，请听政客新闻网记者安妮塔·库马尔从华盛顿特区带回的报道。感谢安妮塔加入我们的节目。这些邮件有多重要呢？考虑到议员们似乎都很站各自边的情况下。

安妮塔·库马尔：我觉得这些邮件确实很重要，因为目前看到的情况是——民主党们迅速表态说，他们想了解邮件内容，还说他们希望几位证人能参加参议院的弹劾审判。如果大家能回想起来的话，未来两周里跨越了圣诞节，在这期间我们一直会讨论的就是：证人是否应该出席？是否应该召开真正意义上的参议院审判？这正是民主党们需要表态的，是的，我们需要的不只是一次快速的审判，不只是没有证人出席的审判。

阿尔辛多：你一直都有在报道特朗普总统是如何处理弹劾事宜的。昨晚，在佛罗里达州一次青少年参加的机会上，特朗普出人意料地几乎没谈弹劾的事情。请给我们讲讲，随着谈弹劾流程的推进，特朗普的情绪是如何发生变化的。

安妮塔·库马尔：没问题。我听闻，过去一周里有跟特朗普交谈过的人说，特朗普的情绪正是大家现在都能从他身上感受到的——愤怒和挫败感。这也是我们看到特朗普在推文和演讲中表达过的，不过，也有一些出乎意料，虽然特朗普知道弹劾流程的迫近，但没想到居然真地发生了。而且让人特别出乎意料的是：众议员叫停了弹劾法案，此举让特朗普倍感惊讶，他不知道该作何解释。他在国会里到处打听，问议员们对此举怎么看。显然，众议员们也不知道是咋回事。所以特朗普还沉浸在这些情绪中。但有一件事是我们一直有所耳闻的：特朗普非常生气。他生气到暴怒，这种怒气无法消解，所以他化怒气为能量，他决心一定要再次当选。他会为此而努力。这也是他现在所有能量的去处。

阿尔辛多：特朗普生气的还有件事——《今日基督教》的编辑写道特朗普已经丧失了道德，彻底失了智。这篇文章在多大程度上表明了特朗普根基中出现的裂缝呢？或者说根本没那么重要？

安妮塔·库马尔：现在也只过去了几天的时间，裂缝也没显示出那么多。而且这不过是一篇文章罢了，只有几万份订阅。但特朗普对此反应强烈，我觉得这是因为基督教徒的票型不一致，而基督教选民又是根基的重要组成部分。这是很大的一部分选民，而特朗普如果要当选，就真地很需要保住这个选民根基。我觉得，特朗普就像咱们讨论的那样，他这周真地很生气。这种怒气让他爆炸。我跟一些人聊了聊，他们都惊讶于特朗普生气的程度，可谓在推特和评论中大动干戈的那种。他们觉得，特朗普行为过激，而过激的原因不过是没什么大不了的事儿。但我觉得这恰恰能反应出他本周的感受。

阿尔辛多：现在节目只剩下大概1分钟的时间。但我想简单跟你聊聊美国经济。特朗普之前一直在谈市场的形式有多好。请问这会对特朗普2020年竞选产生怎样的作用呢？毕竟2020年竞选就要开始了。

安妮塔·库马尔：共和党希望这次会有完整的竞选活动。他们认为，如果特朗普谈论经济的话，那么就没的说，他一定能再次当选。但特朗普的问题在于他会讨论另外20个问题。如果他一直只讨论经济并用经济来代替其他一些话题的话，那他会表现得很好。

安妮塔·库马尔：非常感谢我们来自政客新闻网的记者安妮塔·库马尔。

安妮塔·库马尔：谢谢大家。