PBS高端访谈:北京疫情再次爆发,死亡人数位居第二的巴西开始步美国后尘（在线收听）

Sreenivasan: A new outbreak of coronavirus cases in china has put a district in beijing into what authorities are calling wartime mode, with new lockdowns in place. A 52-year-old man hospitalized on thursday with coronavirus symptoms had visited a major seafood and produce market in early June. Contact tracers are working to test the 10,000 people who work at the Xinfadi market. So far, they have found 45 new cases. Beijing had gone 55 days without a locally-transmitted case of the coronavirus. And in Brazil, the country's coronavirus death toll is now the second-highest in the world, surpassing the U.K. With nearly 42,000 reported deaths. Controversy arose there earlier this month when the government stopped publishing some covid-19 data, including the number of coronavirus deaths. A judge overturned the decision days later. I spoke with New York Times reporter Ernesto Londono in Rio De Janeiro about that and more on the covid-19 crisis in Brazil.

斯瑞尼瓦桑：中国新冠疫情的又一次爆发致使北京某地进入政府所谓的战时状态、开始采取新的封锁措施。一名于周四住院的52岁男子出现冠状病毒症状，称自己曾于6月初去过一个大型的海鲜和农产品市场。为了追踪接触者，北京正对新发地市场的1万名员工进行测试，目前为止已经发现45例新病例。在此之前北京已有连续55天没有出现新的本地感染的冠状病毒病例。巴西目前因感染新冠病毒而死亡的人数已经超过英国位居世界第二，其报道的死亡人数近42,000人。本月初，政府停止发布包括死亡人数在内的有关新冠疫情的数据，该行为引发争议。几天后，一名法官推翻了这一裁决。我和驻地里约热内卢的《纽约时报》记者埃内斯托·伦登纽进行连线，就该事件以及巴西的新冠危机做更多报道。

Sreenivasan: So, the president decides not to publish the coronavirus numbers. How do the people react?

斯瑞尼瓦桑：所以，总统决定不公开感染新冠病毒的人数，人们对此有何反应？

Ernesto Londono: People reacted with outrage. You know, experts found it inconceivable that a country that has now emerged as the epicenter of the epidemic was playing fast and loose with the numbers, and it was questioning whether the numbers presented an accurate snapshot of the epidemic. You know, with anything, healthcare experts think that the official tally undercounts the number of virus deaths and cases in Brazil. You know, we are at a point where more than 40,000 people have died. There have been more than 800,000 confirmed cases. And this is in a country that has had very limited testing and where the trend lines are still tracking upward. The government was forced to reinstate the old way it was counting deaths only after the supreme court weighed in and ordered it to do so.

埃内斯托·伦登纽：人们的反应是愤怒。你知道，当一个国家如今已经成为流行病的中心，政府却玩得乐此不疲并对相关数据放松警惕甚至怀疑数据的准确性，这让专家们难以置信。你知道，无论如何，医疗保健专家认为官方数据并没有将巴西的病毒死亡人数和病例数统计到位。你知道，巴西目前的死亡人数超过4万，确诊人数超过80多万，而这只是测试条件非常有限的巴西给出的保守数据，此外该数据仍处于上升态势，而政府只有在最高法院介入并下达命令之后才能被迫恢复原来的统计死亡人数的方式。

Sreenivasan: Now, how much of this is politics? Because you kind of see Brazil following many of the steps of the united states. Our trend lines are going up, but we're also reopening. There are images that I see of shopping malls and people going back to life as normal in Brazil.

斯瑞尼瓦桑：这其中包含多少政治因素呢？因为我们可以看到，巴西正在步美国的后尘。我们在数据上升的同时依然继续开放，我看到一些巴西购物中心的图片，巴西人们的生活已然已经恢复到了正常状态。

Ernesto Londono: Absolutely. I think politics looms large for all of the elected officials who have a hand in dealing with this pandemic. And what we've had essentially is a tug of war between the presidents and governors around the country that have tried to promote quarantine. I think what all the elected officials are asking themselves is, when the economic toll really starts to bite, who is going to be blamed for the steps that we're taking? And I think the president on some level believes that the governors can take the brunt of the political hit, and he can emerge as the leader, you know, that expressed throughout this crisis the most concern for people's welfare or jobs, etc. You know, he continues to this day to downplay and...downplay the severity of the pandemic and to...and to make claims that are, you know, pretty preposterous in the eyes of many of his critics. For example, on a recent video-live conversation that he had with supporters, he said that people should take to the hospital, should sneak into the hospitals to film what is truly going on, which, you know, doctors obviously think is supremely dangerous to encourage people to sneak into hospitals at a time when doctors are trying to contain this pandemic.

埃内斯托·伦登纽：没错，对于所有参与应对这一流行病的当选官员来说，政治问题显得尤为重要。在巴西试图增强隔离的同时，我们所面临的实际上是总统和州长之间的一场拉锯战。我想所有的当选官员都在问自己，当经济损失真正开始显现时，谁将为我们所采取的措施背锅？此外，我觉得总统在某种程度上相信州长们可以承受政治性冲击，而他可以坐收渔翁之利，假装自己是在这场危机中最关心人民福利和就业问题的领导人。你知道，甚至到今天，他依然在轻描淡写……淡化该流行病的严重性，他的……他的言论在他的批评者看来非常地荒谬。比如，在他最近与支持者的视频直播对话中，他说到人们应该去医院、应该溜进医院拍摄真实情况，你知道，对于医生来说，在他们正努力控制疫情的时候鼓励人们溜进医院显然是极其危险的。

Sreenivasan: One of the other stories that you did this week was kind of interesting is that the deforestation crisis that Brazil's been facing for quite some time now has actually picked up pace during the pandemic. How?

斯瑞尼瓦桑：本周你报道的另外一件事比较有意思，即巴西长期以来面临的森林砍伐危机在大流行期间加快了速度，那么具体是怎样加快的呢？

Ernesto Londono: I think what has happened now is, with all the eyes of the world and, you know, the politicians being consumed by the health care crisis, the state has had a very limited ability to control what's going out in very remote areas. So, illegal loggers and illegal miners have been able to stride deeper and deeper into the rainforest. The government is aware of this, and it set in motion a military response. But most experts think it's going to be insufficient to truly rein in the driving forces of deforestation, which is expected to reach pretty alarming levels this year. Experts are predicting that the fire season this year is going to eclipse what we saw last year.

埃内斯托·伦登纽：我觉得现所发生的事情是，在全世界的注视下，你知道，政客们被医疗危机消耗殆尽，国家在控制偏远地区的能力非常有限。因此，非法伐木工和非法矿工得以在雨林里越走越深。政府意识到了这一点并给予了军事回应。不过大多数专家认为，这并不足以真正遏制森林砍伐问题的真正源头，预计今年森林砍伐将达到相当惊人的水平。此外专家预测，由于今年的火灾季，我们去年所看到的景象今年将黯然失色。

Sreenivasan: All right, Ernesto Londono from the New York Times, joining us from Brazil. Thanks so much.

斯瑞尼瓦桑：好的，来自《纽约时报》的埃内斯托·伦登纽在巴西为我们报道。非常感谢！

Ernesto Londono: Always a pleasure.

斯瑞尼瓦桑：荣幸之至！