英国新闻听力 采访马丁·斯科塞斯（在线收听）

Talk with Martin Scorsese

这是电影院最难忘的场景之一。这段独白来自拳王杰克拉莫塔，它拉开了《愤怒的公牛》的序幕，拳王扮演者罗伯特德尼罗获得了奥斯卡最佳男主角奖。这部由马丁斯科塞斯执导的1980年经典影片成为美国电影院最受欢迎的影片之一。由于其再发行，现在在荧屏上可以再次见到这部电影。它是斯科塞斯与德尼罗的携手之作，他们两人的合作已非常娴熟，在影片《穷街陋巷》和《的士司机》中都得以体现。斯科塞斯甚至作为德尼罗的“的士”乘客参与了影片的小段演出。

FILM CLIP: And though I’m no Oliver, but if he fight Sugar Ray he would say, that the thing ain’t the ring, it’s the play. So give me a stage where this bull can rage, and though I can fight I much rather recite. That’s entertainment! 

电影短片：尽管我不是奥利弗，但如果他与苏格?雷对战，他会说这不是拳击场，这是游戏场。给我一个舞台，让公牛发怒显威，虽然我仍可战斗，但我宁愿背诗。那是娱乐！

THE HOSTESS: That’s got to be one of the most memorable opening scenes in cinema. The monologue from, boxing champion Jake LaMotta that opens “The Raging Bull”, Oscar-winningly delivered by Robert DeNiro. The 1980 classic from Martin Scorsese has become one of the best loved films of American Cinema. And you can watch it on a big screen again, because Raging Bull is getting a re-release. It came out of the relationship between Scorsese and DeNiro, that had already matured in films like “Mean Streets” and “Taxi Driver”. Scorsese even gave himself a small part, as a passenger, in DeNiro’s “Taxi”. 

主持人：这是电影院最难忘的场景之一。这段独白来自拳王杰克?拉莫塔，它拉开了《愤怒的公牛》的序幕，拳王扮演者罗伯特?德尼罗获得了奥斯卡最佳男主角奖。这部由马丁?斯科塞斯执导的1980年经典影片成为美国电影院最受欢迎的影片之一。由于其再发行，现在在荧屏上可以再次见到这部电影。它是斯科塞斯与德尼罗的携手之作，他们两人的合作已非常娴熟，在影片《穷街陋巷》和《的士司机》中都得以体现。斯科塞斯甚至作为德尼罗的“的士”乘客参与了影片的小段演出。

FILM CLIP: What are you doing? What are you doing with the meter? Did I tell you put…Did I do…Did I tell you to do that with the meter? Put the meter back. Let the numbers go on. I don’t care what I have to pay. I didn’t say… I’m not getting out. Put the meter back on. Put it down. 

电影短片：你在做什么？你动那个表做什么？我没告诉过你要放下……我没告诉你……我让你动过表吗？把它放回去。让数字自己走。我不介意我要付多少。我没说……我还没成穷光蛋。把表放回去。放下。

THE HOSTESS: Martin Scorsese as a rather neurotic passenger addressing a silent Robert DeNiro in a 1976’s “Taxi Driver”. Four years later, DeNiro asked Scorsese to make a film about real life boxing champion Jake LaMotta, with himself playing LaMotta. DeNiro had read his autobiography and was desperate to bring this story to the screen. The film was plagued by troubles. Most people on the shoot thought that it wasn’t going to work. Even the Hollywood studio which was financing it tried to get rid of it. Once filming was up and running and nobody else wanted to touch it. The film opened to mild reviews in 1980, but at the Oscar’s the following year; the “Raging Bull” got 8 nominations and One Best Film Editing for Thelma Schoonmaker and Best Actor for DeNiro. The other brilliant performance, of course, comes from the then little known actor, by the name of Joe Pesci, as LaMotta’s brother, Joey. 

主持人：刚才是在1976年的影片《的士司机》中，马丁?斯科塞斯作为一个神经质的乘客对沉默的罗伯特?德尼罗所说的话。四年后，德尼罗请斯科塞斯拍一部讲述拳王杰克?拉莫塔真实生活故事的影片，他自己要出演拉莫塔。德尼罗曾读过拳王的自传，并且要不顾一切的将这个故事搬到荧幕上去。这部影片受到各种问题的困扰。拍摄的很多人都不看好它。甚至那些投资电影的好莱坞摄影棚想尽办法不要拍这部影片。电影开拍后没人想去接触。1980年对影片的评论温和了一点，接着在下一年的奥斯卡中，《愤怒的公牛》获得了八项提名，塞尔玛?斯库马获最佳剪辑奖，德尼罗则获最佳男主角奖。稍后小有名气并且出演了拉?莫塔兄弟乔依的乔?派西在剧中也有不错表现。

FILM CLIP: Ey! I’m your brother. You’re supposed to believe me. Don’t you trust me? No I don’t. No you don’t. That’s nice. I don’t trust you when it comes to her. I don’t trust nobody. I gotta accept your answer you know. I’m telling you now, if I hear anything, I swear on our mother, I’m gonna kill somebody. 

电影短片：嘿！我是你兄弟。你应该相信我。但是你信任我吗？不信任。很好！涉及到她的时候我就不信任你了。我谁也不相信。我要接受你的答案。现在我要告诉你，如果我听到了任何流言蜚语，我向妈妈发誓，我要杀了某个人。

THE HOSTESS: Robert DeNiro and Joe Pesci, in one of their many tense moments in “The Raging Bull”. The BBC’s Francing Stock asked Martin Scorsese if following his badly received movie-musical “New York, New York” in 1977, he took the film on to re-engage with the process of film making. 

主持人：刚才是《愤怒的公牛》中罗伯特?德尼罗与乔?派西的关系紧张场面。英国广播公司曾问过马丁?斯科塞斯，在1977年其音乐剧《纽约，纽约》遭受失败后，他是否利用这部影片重新开始影片制作？

SCORSESE: Well, I think that is a good way of putting it. I guess that that was what I was looking for, or, although, I couldn’t really say that at the time. But, I think I was looking for something again that I could feel strongly about I…I’d have passion for. I mean, in a way “Taxi Driver” had that pulchritude script. 

马丁?斯科塞斯：我认为这部影片很不错，我猜这就是我想找到的，虽然当时我不能说。但是我想再找到一种让我很有感觉，很有激情的东西。在某种程度上，《的士司机》那令人赏心悦目的剧本。

FILM CLIP: You talking to me? You talking to me? Well who the hell else are you talking to? You talking to me? Well I’m the only one here. 

电影短片：你在跟我说话吗？是在跟我说话吗？你到底在跟谁说话？是在跟我说吗？就我一个在这里。

SCORSESE: I had that feeling for “The Mean Streets” of course and to a certain extent “New York, New York” there’s no doubt. But, I didn’t feel I had succeeded in what I wanted to do on the film. The “Last Waltz” kept me creatively excited, and during the period of ‘76 to ‘78, I was really during those two years, I was searching for something that would have an impact on me that would make me pull together and actually physically shoot a film again. To go on a set and deal with all the problems and deal with how to make a movie. When one deals with that, one doesn’t think of them, except in practical terms. But, I knew that in the middle of September 1978, October, when I just finally realised that this may be the right thing to do. 

马丁?斯科塞斯：当然我对《穷街陋巷》也有那样的感觉，一定程度上对《纽约，纽约》也是，这是毫无疑问的。但我认为我没有成功的在电影上做到我想做的。76到78年间《最后的华尔兹》让我持续不断的激动，希望有点创意。那两年间我真的想找到一些能影响我的东西，可以让我全身心的投入去再拍一部电影。找到一个场景，处理好一切困难然后安排好如何拍一部电影。一个人在处理那的时候，是不会考虑它们的，除非是在实际中。在1978年9月中旬和10月，当我最终明白的时候，我知道这就是我该做的。

FILM CLIP: I just said to over cook it. You over cooked it. Bring it over. You want your steak? Bring it over. It’s like a piece of chalk board. Bring it over here! You want your steak? Yeah! Right now! Good, Here’s your steak! Can’t wait for it to be done. Yeah, I can’t wait. Good!

电影短片：我只是说多煮一下。你多煮一下。拿去。你要你的牛排？拿去。它就像快粉笔板。拿去。你想要我的牛排？是的。就现在！很好，这就是你的牛排！迫不及待了。是的，我不能等了。很好！

THE HOSTESS: And the decision to film in black and white, and I know Michael Power was instrumental in this, he observed how with some early footage how very very vivid the boxing gloves were, but I wonder what you think black and white gives the picture. 

主持人：在下定决心用黑白胶片这件事上，我知道迈克尔?鲍尔起到了作用。他观察了如何用一些早期的电影胶片显示出拳击手套是如何的鲜明，但我在想，你认为用黑白胶片显出这些图片怎样？

SCORSESE: It made it special, in the sense that they were…I was pointed at were four or five boxing films or films with boxing themes that were to be released that same year. One of them was “Rocky II” I think, another was “The Main Event” with Barbara Streisand and Ryan O’Neil. Another one was “Mathilda the Boxing Kangaroo”, but there were all in colour. I said this would make it separate, this would make it special. But in so doing, we also, had a residual effect, I should say not residual, but an added benefit that we got from the black and white, which was to frame it in the mind of the tabloids at the time. My father only read the tabloids, he did not read the New York Times. So the pictures from those newspapers were something I grew up with. It also picks up some residue from Film Noir coming out of late 1940s, early 1950s. It just does, the black and white, particularly with people dressed in that way. To all of that I was able to be more expressive with the way we photograph the boxing scenes. The amount of graphic detail in it, including the blood. 

马丁?斯科塞斯：比较起四五部同年要出的拳击电影或者有拳击场面的电影，黑白胶片使得这部电影很特别。其中一个是《洛奇2》，另外一部是芭芭拉?史翠珊与瑞恩?奥尼尔合演的《夺标妙女郎》，还有一部是《玛蒂尔达拳击袋鼠》。但这些都是彩色电影。黑白会让影片独立出来，非常特别。采用黑白胶片后我们还得到了一个剩余效应，不是剩余，而是我们从黑白影片中获得的额外利益，即将电影设计成当时小报的风格。我爸爸只读小报，不读纽约时报，因此那些小报中的图片伴随了我的成长。它同时也从二十世纪四十年代后期及二十世纪五十年代早期出现的黑色电影中获得了剩余效益。黑白胶片确实做到了这些，尤其对那些穿着也是黑白的人们而言。因为上述种种，有了拍摄拳击场景的方式及详细场景（包含了血腥场面）图片的数量，我能够更好的表达自己。

（拳击比赛的背景声音）

THE HOSTESS: Because you couldn’t have done that in colour. It would have been too much. 

主持人：因为那不是彩色影片。它可以更丰富。

SCORSESE: In colour it might have been too much. But if you have seen some fights upfront, it might not have been exaggerating too much. 

马丁?斯科塞斯：有色彩后它可能会更丰富。但如果看到前面的一些搏斗场面，可能不会夸张太多。

THE HOSTESS: And it is a film of double acts. On screen there is obviously Jake LaMotta and his brother and then you have the combination of DeNiro and Pesci working together. But also, obviously, you and DeNiro working together because there was some writing going on, as well as obviously, DeNiro having brought the idea to you in the first place. I mean, do you think in some ways that this film was your closest collaboration with him? 

主持人：这是一个搭档演出的电影。荧幕上显然是拉莫塔和他兄弟，德尼罗和派西一起合作。但显然也有你和德尼罗的合作，因为正在写一些剧本，而且明显的是德尼罗首先向你提供了这个点子。在某些方面，你认为这是你和德尼罗最亲密的一次协作吗？

SCORSESE: I think so. I think it really, starting with “Mean Streets”, going through “Taxi Driver”, “New York, New York”, I think we went through a long process. Ultimately, I think we sort of put everything we knew, together, combined, into this picture, “Raging Bull”. I thought proudly, would be my last picture in America really, or that kind of film anyway. 

马丁?斯科塞斯：我确实这样认为。真的，从《穷街陋巷》开始，然后是《的士司机》、《纽约、纽约》，我想我们经历了很长的一段过程。最后，我认为我们将所有了解的东西放在一起，组合成了这幅画——《愤怒的公牛》。我自豪的想，这真的会是我在美国的最后一幅画，或者电影？

THE HOSTESS: Why? Why did you think that?

主持人：为什么你会这样想？

SCORSESE: I didn’t know if I was interested, or could feel strongly about mounting a film again after that. In other words, you really have to feel strongly about the material, I think, or at least have something to prove. In other words, to prove a point about, dealing with, how should I put it… let’s say I want to make a film, make a film in the spirit of a B film 1955 or 1961 as I did in “Cape Fear” for example, but changed and reformulated for 1991, to reflect America at this point. That was kind of a challenge. That was a very specific, almost technical chore and there were other films in that respect that I did “Alice Doesn’t Live Here Anymore” and “After Hours” even, to a certain extent. But, I didn’t know if these were going to come anymore. Those, along with, at least, if not, films for me, that were foremost in my body, in my mind, that I had to make a good or bad “Last Imitation of Christ” or “Goodfellas” and films like that. It was a little bit of a difficult time, because if you can’t draw on that reserve of caring about the work you do, then how could you work? Why make another movie? It’s not worth it. 

马丁?斯科塞斯：从那以后，我不知道自己是否还有兴趣或者有强烈的愿望来制作电影。换句话说，必须要对素材有强烈的感觉才行，至少要证明些什么。也就是说，证明一点关于处理，该怎么说……比如我想拍电影，有1955年或者1961年B级风格的电影，如同我在《恐怖角》中做的一样，但在1991年我将电影改变重拍以从那点上来反映美国。那是一种挑战。那是一种很明确的，几乎是技术上的杂事。某种程度上说，那方面的电影还有《再见爱丽斯》和《下班之后》。我不知道这些还会不会再来。至少电影对我来说是身体与灵魂中最重要的，我必须制作出或好或坏的《基督最后的诱惑》或《好家伙》之类的电影。那段时间比较痛苦，如果不利用好那关乎自己工作的储备，那该怎么做？难道拍另外一部电影？不值得。

THE HOSTESS: So, when was the moment that you did feel that you would carry on? 

主持人：那么，你是什么时候觉得自己应该继续的呢？

SCORSESE: That was a year or two later. I think, after the “King of Comedy” when Paul Schrader had finished writing “The Last Imitation of Christ” and I started checking out locations in January 1983, that was.

马丁?斯科塞斯：大约是一两年后。《喜剧之王》后当保罗?施埃德写完《基督最后的诱惑》，我便于1983年1月开始检查拍摄场地了，就是在那时。

FILM CLIP: The good news is, you get a shot at the title. The bad news is you have to do the old ‘flip-flop’. So what else is new? What else did you expect? Did you know that was coming? Ehh… You win some, you lose some. This one you lose. 

电影短片：好消息是你有机会夺冠，坏消息是你必须做老式的后翻筋斗。还有什么新鲜的吗？你还期待些什么？你知道那就要来了吗？嗯，你有得有失。你失去了这个。

THE HOSTESS: And the very visceral sense of horror that one gets watching these scenes of course, enormously built up by the use of sound, and your sound editor Frank Warner, this extraordinary mix of noises that he used, I mean, explain for us a little about that. 

主持人：观众在看这些场景时所感受到的内心深处的恐惧大部分是由音效产生的。声音编辑弗兰克?华纳使用了非凡的噪音混合。请向大家谈点这方面的事情。

SCORSESE: Thelma and I, Thelma Schoonmaker and I, really hadn’t placed too much on the sound effects while we were editing the film. We were doing the sound effects as we went along. Frank Warner was the man that really designed that. Actually, he became very possessive about the sound effects. He wouldn’t tell us what many of them were. There was a few that in the second Sugar Ray Fight that were done all long lenses there were some elephant cries and those sorts of things. But the actual punches, he told us a couple of ways he got them, but he would also, I believe, take his sound effects home with them or after the film destroy them. So nobody else would use them. Which would partially be apocryphal but I know he was very private about it.

马丁?斯科塞斯：塞尔玛?斯库马和我在剪辑电影时并没有在音效方面投入太多精力。我们在进行的时候做音效。弗兰克?华纳才是真正设计音效的人。事实上他渐渐开始全权掌管音效方面的工作。他不会告诉我们哪些是什么。在苏格?雷第二场搏斗的长镜头中有些大象哭声之类的音效。至于真正如何获得这些音效，他告诉了我们一些方法。我相信他会将一些音效带回家或在电影完成后毁掉，这样别人就不会再用到。部分音效可能会被假冒，但是在此方面他想保持隐私。

THE HOSTESS: Was it sometimes surprising to you the effect that would have added on top of the edit. 

主持人：在剪辑后期所加上的音效是否有时令你很惊奇？

SCORSESE: Very much so. It was very surprising when Frank put this stuff together with us and I would ask him certain things. He would come up with things, he’d come in. Finally, there was one point, when I said, what haven’t we used right now. He said silence. We would pull all the silence out and the sound comes back in with the final blow. 

马丁?斯科塞斯：经常如此。当弗兰克将他的音效与我们的影片合在一起时我会感到很惊讶，并且会问他一些问题。他会提出一些意见并参与进来。最后，当我问我们现在有什么没用到的时候，他告诉我是无声。我们会除掉这些无声，在影片尘埃落定之前将音效加进来。

FILM CLIP: Big shots. How he can survive them, nobody knows. 

电影短片：了不起！他如何从其中存活下来？天知道。

THE HOSTESS: Martin Scorsese on “The Raging Bull”, getting a re-release in the UK. The Oscar Winning director is returning to his love of music for his next project “Shine A Light”. It’s a documentary on the Rolling Stones, in concert, in a small New York theatre. That’s due out in September. 

主持人：感谢马丁?斯科塞斯带来的《愤怒的公牛》，这部影片正在英国再发行。奥斯卡获奖导演正回到他所爱的音乐，准备其下一部影片《照亮》。这部影片是滚石乐队在纽约一个小剧院的演唱会记录片，预计于9月上映。

单词注释：

neurotic adj.神经质的，神经病的 

plague vt.困扰，使苦恼 

residual adj.剩余的，残留的 

Film Noir 黑色电影 

double act 搭档演出 

visceral adj.内心深处的