PBS高端访谈:美军退出阿富汗后,阿富汗怎样了呢?（在线收听）

A generation of American military presence in Afghanistan is nearing its end. But what comes next? Here's Nick Schifrin.

美国在阿富汗的军事存在已接近尾声。接下来会发生什么呢？下面由尼克·斯齐弗林为我们报道。

The sprawling hub of American operations in Afghanistan for nearly two decades, Bagram Airfield, is now in the hands of the Afghan government.

巴格拉姆机场是美国近二十年来在阿富汗不断扩张的军事行动中心，现在由阿富汗政府控制。

U.S. defense officials say all American forces outside of the Kabul Airport and embassy have left the country.

美国国防部官员表示，喀布尔机场和大使馆外的所有美军已经撤离阿富汗。

President Biden today suggested the country's challenges are now the Afghans' problem.

拜登总统今天表示，阿富汗的问题现在就是阿富汗自己国家的问题。

We have worked out an over-the-horizon capacity that we can be value added, but the Afghans are going to have to be able to do it themselves with the air force they have, which we're helping them maintain.

我们已经达到了一个可以为我们增值的超越了一般水平的能力，但是阿富汗人将必须有能力用他们自己的空军做到之前我们帮它维持的那个点。

Sir, on Afghanistan...

先生，在阿富汗……

I'm not going to answer any more quick question on Afghanistan. Look, it's Fourth of July.

我不会再回答任何关于阿富汗的问题。听着，今天是独立日。

On the economy...

经济方面……

Are you concerned about Fourth of July gatherings...

你有没有想过独立日的聚会？

I'm concerned that you guys are asking me questions that I will answer next week. But I'm -- this is a holiday weekend. I'm going to celebrate it.

我想过你们问的问题我下周再回答。但我，现在是假期周末，我要庆祝一下。

So, what of this moment in Afghanistan and its very uncertain future? Our Jane Ferguson joins me from Kabul. Jane, good to see you. Talk about the mood on the ground in Kabul. How does the government feel? How does the city feel?

所以，现在的阿富汗以及它那非常不确定的未来会怎样呢？下面由我们在喀布尔的记者简·弗格森为您报道。简，很高兴见到你。喀布尔当地的气氛现在是怎样的？政府的感觉如何？这个城市的感觉如何？

Government officials, Nick, are trying to make sense of what the next coming weeks and months are going to mean for them.

政府官员，尼克，正试图弄清楚未来几周和几个月对他们来说意味着什么。

They have spent the last months trying to make sure that they could secure the U.S. funding, that $4 billion a year for the Afghan security forces.

过去几个月，他们一直在努力确保能够获得美国每年为阿富汗安全部队提供的40亿美元的资金。

But now they have much bigger concerns, whether or not they can hold any more ground against the Taliban.

但现在他们有了更大的担忧，他们在担心自己是否能在对抗塔利班方面拥有更多阵地。

And to a certain extent, some of the political leadership here has really gone to ground.

从某种程度上说，这里的一些政治领导真的已经转入地下。

And the president here, Ashraf Ghani, seems increasingly isolated in the palace.

总统阿什拉夫·加尼在宫殿里似乎越来越被孤立。

Now, across Kabul, in the streets and in cafes and restaurants that we have been to today, there isn't a sense of panic. People are getting on with their daily lives.

现在，在喀布尔的大街上，在我们今天去过的咖啡馆和餐馆里，没有恐慌的感觉。人们都在继续他们的日常生活。

But there's a deep sense of fear whether or not the Taliban could come back here or whether or not they will see more of a civil war taking place and a new phase in this war.

但是，对于塔利班是否会回到这里，或者是否会有更多的内战发生，以及这场战争是否会进入新的阶段，人们有一种深深的恐惧。

And don't forget, Nick, that the vast majority of the population here in Afghanistan are too young to remember Taliban rule.

尼克，别忘了，绝大多数阿富汗人都很年轻，他们不记得塔利班的统治，

Their parents and grandparents remember Taliban rule. And many people deeply fear a return to that.

只有他们的父母和祖父母还记得塔利班的统治。很多人非常担心这种情况再次出现。

And, in turn, you're seeing a huge amount of them trying to get out of the country.

反过来，也能看到有大量的人正试图离开这个国家。

There's also the important topic of what will happen for women here. And I have spoken to those who run women's shelters across the country.

还有一个重要的话题，那就是这里的女性将会发生什么。我也和全国各地的妇女庇护所的负责人交谈过，

And they have had to evacuate many of those shelters within territory that was about to or had fallen to the Taliban, and move vulnerable women,

他们不得不撤离即将或已落入塔利班控制的领土内的许多庇护所，转移那些脆弱的女性，

those who are being who are being helped because they're coming from abusive situations or they have been released from jail, and they have children.

那些正在被帮助的女性，因为他们遭受过虐待或者刚从监狱里释放出来，而且他们有孩子。

Many of those women who don't have anywhere else to go have had to flee those shelters and move into government-controlled areas, which, as you well know, are becoming smaller and smaller.

许多没有其他地方可去的妇女不得不逃离这些避难所，进入政府控制的区域，正如你们所知道的，这些地区的范围正变得越来越小。

And those fears outside of Kabul are also about fighting not only between the Taliban and the Afghan military, but also local militias now fighting.

喀布尔之外的担忧不仅涉及塔利班和阿富汗军队之间的斗争，也包括正在战斗的当地民兵。

Absolutely. We have seen, since President Biden's announcement that there would be an unconditional withdrawal, a huge uptick in violence by the Taliban.

是的。自从拜登总统宣布无条件撤军以来，我们已经看到塔利班的暴力活动在激增。

And the tactics are fairly clear. They want to take rural areas between the major cities, essentially choking off those cities.

战术也非常清楚，他们想把主要城市之间的农村地区，从本质上切断这些城市。

And, for now, they have managed to take many districts across the country.

到目前为止他们已经成功地占领了全国许多地区。

And part of the tactic as well is to draw the and ANDSF, the Afghan security forces, the government security forces, into fighting on way more fronts than they can really manage to do so, to draw them into fighting across the country and stretching them thin on many different areas.

这一策略的目的之一也是为了吸引阿富汗安全部队(ANDSF)(也就是政府安全部队)到远远超出他们的能力范围的更多的前线作战，把他们拉进全国各地的战斗，把他们分散到不同的地区。

So, in response to that, the government is essentially handing out weapons to civilians, and encouraging what it calls popular uprisings, essentially militias across the country, to try to get them to go out and support the Afghan government security forces.

因此，为了应对这种情况，政府实际上是向平民发放武器，并鼓励所谓的民众起义，也就是全国各地的民兵组织，试图让他们出去支持阿富汗政府的安全部队。

We have been out there ourselves with these militias as they fight the Taliban next to the Afghan army.

我们曾和这些民兵一起在阿富汗军队旁边与塔利班作战，

They are civilians. Many of them have never fought before. Some of them have been in militias way back during the 1990s civil war.

他们是平民，他们中有很多以前从未打过仗，也有一些早在上世纪90年代内战时就加入了民兵组织。

And they're being handed guns by the government and told to help protect their own areas and other areas here that are -- that are under threat of falling to the Taliban.

政府给他们枪支，让他们帮助保护那些正面临落入塔利班威胁的自己所在的地区以及其他地区。

As U.S. service members are leaving, also leaving are U.S. contractors who have been servicing Afghan air force helicopters.

在美军撤离的同时，一直为阿富汗空军直升机提供服务的美国承包商也在撤离。

The U.S. is trying to figure out a solution there. But, Jane, how important is that?

美国正试图找到解决方案。但是，简，这一点的重要程度如何？

Air support for the Afghan security forces is absolutely crucial. And the loss of it could completely tip the balance of power in the -- on the battlefield across Afghanistan.

对阿富汗安全部队的空中支援绝对是至关重要的，失去它可能会彻底改变阿富汗战场上的力量平衡。

We have already seen at least one unit of Afghan special forces last month being killed by the Taliban because they didn't have any backup.

上个月，我们已经看到至少有一支阿富汗特种部队被塔利班剿灭，因为他们没有任何后援。

And finally, Jane, the U.S. is also trying to figure out what to do in terms of future airstrikes, how to get Afghan translators out of the country and how to secure the airport. How important is it that the U.S. finalize those deals?

最后，简，美国也在试图弄清楚该如何应对未来的空袭，如何让阿富汗翻译人员离开阿富汗，以及如何保护机场。美国敲定这些协议有多重要？

There are so many questions still left, Nick. As you have said, we don't yet know exactly what the rules of engagement will be.

目前还有很多问题尚未解决，尼克。正如你所说，我们还不知道具体的交战规则是什么。

Will the U.S. military prevent the Taliban from marching on major cities or even Kabul?

美国军队会阻止塔利班向主要城市甚至喀布尔进军吗？

Will the civilian or the special immigrant visas for the contractors, the interpreters who worked with the Afghan military get access to those visas?

平民或承包商的特殊移民签证，即为阿富汗军方工作的翻译，能获得这些签证吗？

I had dinner tonight with one of those former interpreters, who has been denied his application for the visa.

我今晚刚和其中一位以前的翻译一起吃的晚饭，他的签证申请被拒绝了。

He knows that Americans have been flying out today and that time is running out and that him and many others feel completely left behind.

他知道，今天一直有美国人在飞走，时间不多了，他和其他很多人感到自己的完全被跑在了后面。

And that lack of answers means a lack of answers for thousands of them across Afghanistan.

没有答案就意味着阿富汗各地成千上万的难民也没有答案。

Our Jane Ferguson tonight in Kabul, thank you very much.

谢谢简·弗格森今晚在喀布尔为我们报道，非常感谢。