PBS高端访谈:谈拜登政府对阿富汗局势的看法(2)（在线收听）

Judy, as I think you know, we have been in diplomatic conversations with the Taliban for quite some time.

朱迪，我想你知道，我们与塔利班进行外交对话已经有一段时间了。

Those conversations at high levels took place in Doha, Qatar.

这些高层对话在卡塔尔的多哈进行。

We have now also established a channel to the Taliban on the ground in Kabul, so that exactly those sorts of operational considerations, including safe passage to the airport, can be arranged based on the work of our commanders in the field,

我们现在还在喀布尔建立了与塔利班的地面联络渠道，正是因此，我们可以基于指挥官在当地的工作来安排这些行动考虑，包括通往机场的安全通道，

who have the closest, clearest sense of the details on the ground and what exactly we need to be able to accomplish that.

指挥官对现场的细节有最密切、最清楚的了解，知道我们到底需要什么来达成我们的目的。

Jon Finer, I know you are aware of this, but there are not only Republican, but many Democratic members of Congress and so many others who are criticizing the administration right now for not doing more earlier to move,

乔恩·芬纳，我知道你意识到了这一点，但不仅是共和党人，还有很多国会的民主党议员和其他许多人现在都在批评政府没有采取更多行动让那些人安全离开阿富汗，

not just Americans, but especially those Afghan allies who worked for the U.S. over the years, to get them safely out of the country.

不仅仅是美国人，尤其是那些多年来为美国工作的阿富汗盟友。

We have members of Congress, including those who appearing on this program, who were saying they pleaded with the Biden administration to move on this earlier.

有一些国会议员，包括那些参加该节目的人，他们都恳求拜登政府能够早些时候采取行动。

And they were met -- their pleas were met with deaf ears.

但他们的请求被置若罔闻。

So, Judy, I think you heard, as I did, the directors of national intelligence in the Central Intelligence Agency say yesterday that all of this transpired much faster than anyone internally and really most people externally predicted it would.

朱迪，我想你和我一样都听到了昨天中央情报局的国家情报总监的发言，所有这些行动都比内部以及大多数外部人预测的要快得多。

What you had was a country that effectively lost its governing authority and its armed forces within a matter of days.

你看到的是一个在短短几天内就失去了统治权威和武装力量的国家。

When that happened, there was guaranteed to be a degree of turbulence, especially in a place as politically complex as Afghanistan.

当这种情况发生时，肯定会出现一定程度的动荡，尤其是在阿富汗这样一个政治复杂的地方。

But because we did take these reports as seriously as we did, we had forces prepositioned in the region that we were able to flow into the country very quickly.

但因为我们认真对待这些报告，我们在该地区预先部署了部队，能够迅速进入该国。

We were able to gain security control of the airport within a matter of days.

我们在几天内就控制了机场的安全。

We were able to close down our embassy and evacuate our diplomats, again, without a major security incident involved in doing that, which would have been a real worst-case scenario.

我们关闭了我们的大使馆并撤离了我们的外交官，同样，我们没有发生重大安全事故，而这本应是最糟糕的情况。

And we have now been able to start executing these flights to get people out of the country on an urgent basis.

我们现在已经能够开始启动这些航班，将人们紧急送出这个国家。

You were saying that this happened much faster than anyone expected. And the president himself has said that.

你刚刚说这件事的发生比任何人预料得都要快，总统自己也说过，

But we have top CIA, former CIA officials, the head of counterterrorism for Southwest and South Asia, who was saying that he advised your team that they -- he said he knows for a fact

但我们有中央情报局的高级官员、前中央情报局官员、西南和南亚反恐的负责人，他说他给你的团队提供了建议，他说，他知道一个事实，

that the ultimate assessment from the intelligence community to the Biden team was that Afghan forces might capitulate within days, that this was -- in other words, that this was something the administration should have foreseen.

情报界给拜登团队的最终评估是阿富汗部队可能会在几天内投降，换句话说，这种情况是政府应该预见到的。

All I can say about that, Judy, is, I and my colleagues have read every piece of intelligence that is relevant,

朱迪，我能说的是，我和我的同事已经看了每一份相关情报，

every assessment that has come from our intelligence community on Afghanistan going back since the very beginning of this administration.

每一份来自我们情报机构的关于阿富汗的评估，从本届政府开始的时候我们就在看了，

We take these assessments incredibly seriously.

我们也有非常认真地对待这些评估。

And I would point you again to the comments yesterday by the directors of national intelligence and the Central Intelligence Agency, who said basically exactly what I just told you, which is that this all transpired much more quickly than was anticipated by them or anyone else.

我想再次强调一下昨天国家情报和中央情报局局长的发言，他们说的基本上和我刚才跟你们说的一致，这一切的发生都比他们或者所有人预期的要快得多。

And we heard General Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs, say that it was known that there could be a full collapse of the Afghan government. Is that what the administration expected?

我们听到参谋长联席会议主席米莱将军说，阿富汗政府可能会彻底崩溃，这是大家都知道的事情。政府没有预料到这一点吗？

Intelligence is about a range of possibilities. That was one of the possibilities.

情报是指一系列的可能性，而这只是其中一种可能性。

And exactly because of that possibility, Judy -- and this is important to underscore -- the president order that forces be prepositioned in the region so that we could flow them into Afghanistan very quickly on a hair trigger if the security environment began to deteriorate.

正是因为这种可能性，朱迪，这一点很重要，我再次强调一下，正是因为这种可能性，总统才命令部队在该地区预先部署，这样我们就可以在安全环境开始恶化时一触即发地迅速向阿富汗派遣军队。

And that's exactly what we did. And because of that, again, we were able to draw our embassy down and begin these flights, these evacuations out of Afghanistan much more quickly.

这正是我们所做的。正因为如此，我再说一遍，我们才能够撤回我们的大使馆并启动这些航班，这些撤离阿富汗的行动已经很快了。

One last question about that.

最后一个问题：

Should the United States have negotiated an exit that involved a larger footprint here at the end for the United States, so that the United States is not encircled in its efforts to get people out of the country at one airport in the -- just outside Kabul?

在从阿富汗撤离大批相关人员时，美国是否应该通过谈判达成撤军协议，这样也不至于在喀布尔郊外机场的撤离行动中被阿富汗人包围？

The United States has a very significant security footprint in Kabul, in Afghanistan.

美国在阿富汗喀布尔有非常重要的安全足迹。

Our military commanders have told the president they have what they need to keep that facility safe and secure.

我们的军事指挥官告诉总统，他们有必要确保设施的安全。

If that changes, I guarantee you the president will provide exactly what is required. But, for now, we believe we have got what we need.

如果这一点发生了变化，我保证总统会将一切告知。但是，就目前而言，我们相信我们已经得到了我们需要的东西。

Jon Finer is the deputy national security adviser. Thank you very much. We appreciate it.

乔恩·芬纳是副国家安全顾问。非常感谢。

Thank you, Judy.

谢谢，朱迪。