PBS高端访谈:亚当·希夫新书谈论美国民主 称特朗普统治时期为至暗时期（在线收听）

He is best known probably for being the chief prosecutor in former President Donald Trump's first impeachment trial. That case ended with an acquittal.

他最出名的可能是在前总统唐纳德特朗普的第一次弹劾审判中担任首席检察官。该案件以无罪告终。

But, in his new book, "Midnight in Washington: How We Almost Lost Our Democracy and Still Could," House Intelligence Committee Chairman Adam Schiff connects that episode to others in our recent history, including the January 6 Capitol riot.

但是，众议院情报委员会主席亚当·希夫在他的新书 华盛顿午夜:我们如何几乎失去民主，并且仍然可能失去 中，将这一事件与我国近现代历史上的其他事件联系起来，包括1月6日的国会骚乱。

Chairman Schiff joined me here just a short time ago.Congressman Adam Schiff, thank you very much for joining us.

席夫主席不久前和我一起来到这里。国会议员亚当席夫，非常感谢你加入我们。

If the title weren't jarring enough, you have also been saying that the risk of authoritarianism in this country has never been greater. Do you mean that?

如果标题不够刺耳，你还一直说这个国家的威权主义风险从未如此大。你是这个意思吗？

I do. There's this dangerous flirtation in the Republican Party right now with autocracy. You see it reflected in some of their preeminent spokespeople, like Tucker Carlson extolling the model of Viktor Orban, the Hungarian wannabe dictator. You see conservative political conventions now being scheduled in Budapest.

我同意。共和党内部现在正在对专制进行这种危险的调情。你可以从他们一些杰出的代言人身上看到这一点，比如塔克·卡尔森对匈牙利独裁者维克托·欧尔班的模式的赞美。你可以看到布达佩斯正在举行保守的政治会议。

And you see Republicans around the country attacking the independent apparatus of our democracy, these elections officials, and trying to strip them of their powers and give them to partisan appointed officials or boards.And that is a direct threat to our democracy and a pathway to authoritarianism.

你可以看到全国各地的共和党人攻击我们民主的独立机构，这些选举官员，试图剥夺他们的权力，把权力交给党派指定的官员或委员会。这是对我们民主的直接威胁，是走向独裁主义的途径。

I'm struck in the book by -- obviously, you focus a great deal on former President Trump, but how much you focus on Republican members of Congress. And you describe how many of them are good people who are persuaded to abandon their beliefs. This becomes a theme of the book. Give us an example of how you see their minds changing, their hearts changing.

显然，你非常关注前总统特朗普，但你对国会共和党成员的关注有多少。你描述了他们中有多少是被说服放弃信仰的好人。这成为本书的主题。给我们一个例子，说明你如何看待他们的思想变化，他们的内心变化。

It is really a theme, a running theme in the book.And it goes back to something Robert Caro, the historian, once observed, that power doesn't corrupt as much as it reveals. And over the last five years, we have seen how power has revealed who certain people are. Bill Barr is a perfect example.

这确实是一个主题，是书中不断出现的主题。这要追溯到历史学家罗伯特·卡罗曾经说过的一句话，权力并不像它所揭示的那样腐败。在过去的五年里，我们看到权力是如何揭示某些人的本来面目。比尔·巴尔就是一个很好的例子。

Bill Barr, under the George Herbert Walker Bush administration, when he was first attorney general, was one kind of person. Surrounded, I think, by people of integrity, like the former president, we didn't get a sense of who he was.

乔治·赫伯特·沃克·布什政府时期的比尔·巴尔，当他还是第一任司法部长时，就是这样的人。我想，周围都是正直的人，比如前总统，我们觉察不到他的本来面目。

But later, tethered to a man without scruple like Donald Trump, we found that Bill Barr was also without scruple, that he would do almost anything to have a seat once again at the table of power. And there are so many other cautionary tales along those lines.

但后来，我们发现，比尔·巴尔被一个像唐纳德·特朗普这样毫无顾忌的人束缚住了，他也毫无顾忌，为了再次坐上权力的宝座，他几乎会做任何事情。沿着这些线索还有很多其他的警示故事。

But I also wanted to tell the story in this book about the heroes that emerged, the Marie Yovanovitches, the Bill Taylors, the Alexander Vindmans, those who showed great courage, because their example is what will lead us out of this darkness.

但我也想讲述这本书中出现的英雄故事，玛丽·约瓦诺维奇，比尔·泰勒，亚历山大·文德曼，那些表现出巨大勇气的人，因为他们这样的榜样将带领我们走出这片黑暗。

Do you think -- I mean, you call it darkness. I mean, do you see an end to the influence of Donald Trump?

你认为——我的意思是，你称之为黑暗。我的意思是，你认为唐纳德·特朗普的影响力会终结吗?

I do. And what really I think is such a terrible tragedy is, after we went through that horrible ordeal of the insurrection, there was a window when the Republican Party might have recaptured its identity as a party of ideas.

是的。我认为真正可怕的悲剧是, 在我们经历了起义的可怕磨难之后，有一个窗口可以让共和党重新获得作为思想政党的身份。