美国国家公共电台 NPR--Did any of what Hutchinson said create a case for criminal wrong-doing against Trump?

Did any of what Hutchinson said create a case for criminal wrong-doing against Trump¹?

Transcript²

NPR's Rachel Martin talks to Elie Honig, a former federal prosecutor³, about the ramifications⁴ of Cassidy Hutchinson's testimony⁵ before the House panel investigating the Jan. 6 attack on the Capitol.

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST:

To talk about the ramifications of Cassidy Hutchinson's testimony, we are joined now by Elie Honig. He is a former New Jersey⁶ and federal prosecutor. Thanks so much for being with us, Elie.

ELIE HONIG: So glad to be with you, Rachel. Thanks for having me.

MARTIN: Yeah, happy to have you here. Cassidy Hutchinson's testimony stands out in part because of her proximity⁷ to power, right? She was in the room with the president and his inner circle at these key moments on January 6 and in the days leading up to it. What does it change?

HONIG: Well, to me, Rachel, looking back at the last several years, of all the people who've testified publicly about Donald Trump - from Michael Cohen to the Ukraine impeachment⁸ witnesses, on to the witnesses who've testified earlier in these hearings - I think that Cassidy Hutchinson made the single biggest impact. Like you said, first of all, she had access. She was in the room. She had direct observations of Donald Trump. Second of all, she came across to me, using my former prosecutor lens, as very credible⁹. Her testimony was believable. She was careful. She's corroborated¹⁰. She's backed up by other evidence. And she has nothing to gain by doing this. If anything, I think she showed a lot of courage and exposed herself to all sorts of potential blowback by coming forward. And I thought it was especially devastating¹¹ for those reasons.

MARTIN: Although, of course, there are questions about why it took her so long, right? And President Trump himself has suggested that she didn't exactly cut ties with him after January 6, 2020. Other outlets¹², we should note, are reporting that former White House Deputy Chief of Staff Tony Ornato denies telling Hutchinson this anecdote¹³ that she had recounted about the alleged¹⁴ attack on Secret Service agents by Trump. I mean, does any of this chip away at her credibility?

HONIG: Well, I think it does. And I think it's useful to keep in mind this is not a criminal trial. This is not a prosecution¹⁵. And if it were, you would see cross-examination of these witnesses. You would see an opportunity for the accused to put on witnesses, like Tony Ornato. This is what we call a credibility contest. And people would have to decide who they believe. I think it's really important to note that another White House staffer, Alyssa Farah, who's a colleague of mine at CNN, has said publicly that she testified to the committee about something that Tony Ornato said to her that was damning to the president. And Ornato, she says, falsely denied that as well. So if I have to decide between Cassidy Hutchinson and Alyssa Farah, given what I've seen, and Tony Ornato, I'm coming out on Hutchinson and Farah's side. But that's the kind of decision that a judge or a jury would make if this was a trial setting.

MARTIN: So a lot of people are seizing on the president's remarks, as - according to Hutchinson, that all the magnetometers be taken away, that his supporters, who he knew were armed, should be able to pass freely to the U.S. Capitol and that even when he was made aware of the rioters chanting hang Mike Pence, he did nothing. In your opinion, does any of that establish a clear case for criminal wrongdoing against the former president?

HONIG: To me, the testimony about let's take the mags down is the most important piece of testimony yesterday and, I think, put on top of all the other evidence we've seen, does make a prosecutable¹⁶ case against Donald Trump. Now, the considerations to think about, the political and practical ramifications of this. But yesterday, Cassidy Hutchinson gave us the clearest link between Donald Trump himself and the use of force, the violence that happened on the Capitol. Her testimony established that when Donald Trump gave that speech that we've all seen so many times on the rally - we're going to go down to the Capitol. You have to show strength. We're going to fight, fight like hell.

He knew, right before he took that stage, that that crowd was armed. He knew they were headed to the Capitol. And he was so confident that they were not going to do anything to him, they were there for him, that he was willing to risk his own security by telling people that he wanted those mags taken down. So to me, that could lend itself to a conspiracy¹⁷ charge, to an obstruction¹⁸ charge, even to a seditious conspiracy charge, which requires a showing that force was part of the plan.

MARTIN: At the end of the hearing, Liz Cheney brought up the issue of witness intimidation¹⁹. And she read these excerpts²⁰ of messages that some witnesses had received. Let's listen to this tape.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

LIZ CHENEY: What they said to me is as long as I continue to be a team player, they know I'm on the right team, you know? I'll continue to stay in good graces in Trump world. Here's another sample. A person let me know you have your deposition²¹ tomorrow. He wants me to let you know he's thinking about you. He knows you're loyal and you're going to do the right thing.

MARTIN: How do you take those? Are those messages enough to bring charges of witness intimidation?

HONIG: Well, it's become fashionable to say that those sound like something a mob boss would say. As somebody who used to prosecute²² actual mob bosses in New York City, I can say that's largely true. What's also really reminiscent of the mob here is that it's not the boss. It's not Donald Trump making those statements. It's coming - those statements are coming through intermediaries. Smart bosses know to have others do their dirty work for them. If it can be proven - whoever said those statements to Cassidy Hutchinson - that is textbook witness tampering²³. That is textbook obstruction of justice. And, you know, there was questions about, why are we having this hearing on this emergency surprise basis? I think that's the answer right there. I think the committee understood that a single...

MARTIN: Yeah.

HONIG: ...Well-placed word or paragraph to Cassidy Hutchinson could have derailed this whole thing. They wanted to get her in while they could.

MARTIN: Elie Honig, former New Jersey and federal prosecutor. Thank you.

HONIG: Thanks, Rachel.

1 trump   

n.王牌，法宝；v.打出王牌，吹喇叭

参考例句：

• He was never able to trump up the courage to have a showdown.他始终鼓不起勇气摊牌。
• The coach saved his star player for a trump card.教练保留他的明星选手，作为他的王牌。

2 transcript   

n.抄本，誊本，副本，肄业证书

参考例句：

• A transcript of the tapes was presented as evidence in court.一份录音带的文字本作为证据被呈交法庭。
• They wouldn't let me have a transcript of the interview.他们拒绝给我一份采访的文字整理稿。

3 prosecutor   

n.起诉人；检察官，公诉人

参考例句：

• The defender argued down the prosecutor at the court.辩护人在法庭上驳倒了起诉人。
• The prosecutor would tear your testimony to pieces.检查官会把你的证言驳得体无完肤。

4 ramifications   

n.结果，后果( ramification的名词复数 )

参考例句：

• These changes are bound to have widespread social ramifications. 这些变化注定会造成许多难以预料的社会后果。
• What are the ramifications of our decision to join the union? 我们决定加入工会会引起哪些后果呢？ 来自《简明英汉词典》

5 testimony   

n.证词；见证，证明

参考例句：

• The testimony given by him is dubious.他所作的证据是可疑的。
• He was called in to bear testimony to what the police officer said.他被传入为警官所说的话作证。

6 jersey   

n.运动衫

参考例句：

• He wears a cotton jersey when he plays football.他穿运动衫踢足球。
• They were dressed alike in blue jersey and knickers.他们穿着一致，都是蓝色的运动衫和灯笼短裤。

7 proximity   

n.接近，邻近

参考例句：

• Marriages in proximity of blood are forbidden by the law.法律规定禁止近亲结婚。
• Their house is in close proximity to ours.他们的房子很接近我们的。

8 impeachment   

n.弹劾；控告；怀疑

参考例句：

• Impeachment is considered a drastic measure in the United States.在美国，弹劾被视为一种非常激烈的措施。
• The verdict resulting from his impeachment destroyed his political career.他遭弹劾后得到的判决毁了他的政治生涯。

9 credible   

adj.可信任的，可靠的

参考例句：

• The news report is hardly credible.这则新闻报道令人难以置信。
• Is there a credible alternative to the nuclear deterrent?是否有可以取代核威慑力量的可靠办法？

10 corroborated   

v.证实，支持（某种说法、信仰、理论等）( corroborate的过去式 )

参考例句：

• The evidence was corroborated by two independent witnesses. 此证据由两名独立证人提供。
• Experiments have corroborated her predictions. 实验证实了她的预言。 来自《简明英汉词典》

11 devastating   

adj.毁灭性的，令人震惊的，强有力的

参考例句：

• It is the most devastating storm in 20 years.这是20年来破坏性最大的风暴。
• Affairs do have a devastating effect on marriages.婚外情确实会对婚姻造成毁灭性的影响。

12 outlets   

n.出口( outlet的名词复数 )；经销店；插座；廉价经销店

参考例句：

• The dumping of foreign cotton blocked outlets for locally grown cotton. 外国棉花的倾销阻滞了当地生产的棉花的销路。 来自《简明英汉词典》
• They must find outlets for their products. 他们必须为自己的产品寻找出路。 来自《现代汉英综合大词典》

13 anecdote   

n.轶事，趣闻，短故事

参考例句：

• He departed from the text to tell an anecdote.他偏离课文讲起了一则轶事。
• It had never been more than a family anecdote.那不过是个家庭趣谈罢了。

14 alleged   

a.被指控的，嫌疑的

参考例句：

• It was alleged that he had taken bribes while in office. 他被指称在任时收受贿赂。
• alleged irregularities in the election campaign 被指称竞选运动中的不正当行为

15 prosecution   

n.起诉，告发，检举，执行，经营

参考例句：

• The Smiths brought a prosecution against the organizers.史密斯家对组织者们提出起诉。
• He attempts to rebut the assertion made by the prosecution witness.他试图反驳原告方证人所作的断言。

16 prosecutable   

[法] 可提起公诉的

参考例句：

17 conspiracy   

n.阴谋，密谋，共谋

参考例句：

• The men were found guilty of conspiracy to murder.这些人被裁决犯有阴谋杀人罪。
• He claimed that it was all a conspiracy against him.他声称这一切都是一场针对他的阴谋。

18 obstruction   

n.阻塞，堵塞；障碍物

参考例句：

• She was charged with obstruction of a police officer in the execution of his duty.她被指控妨碍警察执行任务。
• The road was cleared from obstruction.那条路已被清除了障碍。

19 intimidation   

n.恐吓，威胁

参考例句：

• The Opposition alleged voter intimidation by the army.反对党声称投票者受到军方的恐吓。
• The gang silenced witnesses by intimidation.恶帮用恐吓的手段使得证人不敢说话。

20 excerpts   

n.摘录，摘要( excerpt的名词复数 )；节选（音乐，电影）片段

参考例句：

• Some excerpts from a Renaissance mass are spatchcocked into Gluck's pallid Don Juan music. 一些文艺复光时期的弥撒的选节被不适当地加入到了格鲁克平淡无味的唐璜音乐中。 来自《简明英汉词典》
• He is editing together excerpts of some of his films. 他正在将自己制作的一些电影的片断进行剪辑合成。 来自辞典例句

21 deposition   

n.免职，罢官；作证；沉淀；沉淀物

参考例句：

• It was this issue which led to the deposition of the king.正是这件事导致了国王被废黜。
• This leads to calcium deposition in the blood-vessels.这导致钙在血管中沉积。

22 prosecute   

vt.告发；进行；vi.告发，起诉，作检察官

参考例句：

• I am trying my best to prosecute my duties.我正在尽力履行我的职责。
• Is there enough evidence to prosecute?有没有起诉的足够证据？

23 tampering   

v.窜改( tamper的现在分词 )；篡改；（用不正当手段）影响；瞎摆弄

参考例句：

• Two policemen were accused of tampering with the evidence. 有两名警察被控篡改证据。 来自《简明英汉词典》
• As Harry London had forecast, Brookside's D-day caught many meter-tampering offenders. 正如哈里·伦敦预见到的那样，布鲁克赛德的D日行动抓住了不少非法改装仪表的人。 来自辞典例句