美国国家公共电台 NPR--A debt ceiling clash isn't new. Ex-Treasury Secretary Lew looks back on negotiations

A debt ceiling clash isn't new. Ex-Treasury¹ Secretary Lew looks back on negotiations³

Transcript⁴

NPR's Asma Khalid talks to former Treasury Secretary Jack⁵ Lew, who helped navigate⁶ debt-ceiling crises during the Obama administration, about lessons he learned during those past showdowns.

ASMA KHALID, HOST:

The Treasury Department has been taking extraordinary measures to avoid a default on U.S. debt. But that's just a temporary solution. At some point, Congress and the White House will have to act together to raise the debt ceiling. And many of the same people who have been negotiating on this issue on and off since 2011, when the U.S. came so close to default that Standard & Poor's downgraded the nation's credit rating - among them, Joe Biden, who was then vice⁷ president. We spoke⁸ with former Treasury Secretary Jack Lew about what lessons were learned from previous debt ceiling crises. He helped navigate a few of them during the Obama administration. In 2011, he was director of the Office of Management and Budget.

JACK LEW: There were nights when we were negotiating literally⁹ through the night, you know, at multiple levels. I was with the vice president then, and Senator McConnell, on calls. We were in and out of the Oval Office. And there were nights when you would check the Asian markets in the middle of the night to make sure the world didn't think that was the day we were going over the line. And this was not at a random¹⁰ time. It was right as we were emerging from the great financial crisis.

KHALID: For those who don't remember what happened in 2011, how did it ultimately get resolved?

LEW: Well, it ultimately got resolved in a combination of lowering the caps on discretionary spending and putting in place a special committee that was supposed to report back on deficit¹¹ reduction. And in the event that that special committee failed, you know, deep across-the-board cuts in a process called sequestration. And it was not a good process. It was only the best alternative at the moment to default.

KHALID: So it sounds like in 2011 there were concessions¹², ultimately, the Democrats¹³ made - right? - in the sense, after 2011 - was that Democrats can't do this in the future. Is that what you were saying?

LEW: Well, you know, not to go back to ancient history. I've been involved - I was involved - in showdowns over the debt limit in the 1980s, when I was working for the speaker of the House, in the 1990s, when I was at OMB in the Clinton administration and then again in 2011 and '13 in the Obama administration. What changed over time was there was always a negotiation² with a must-pass bill until 2011, when, all of a sudden, default was an acceptable outcome to those making demands. That's not a negotiation. That's a kind of policy extortion.

KHALID: So let's talk about what happened then a couple of years later in 2013.

LEW: In 2013, President Obama - I was at Treasury at the time - myself and the economic team made the judgment¹⁴ we could not do that again. You know, it's one thing to negotiate over fiscal¹⁵ policy. And that is totally appropriate, but not with the demand of, if I don't get what I'm looking for, we will default. That had to be put to rest, and it got resolved in 2013 and beyond. This is really the first major showdown since then.

KHALID: So you mentioned in 2013 it ultimately got resolved. But then my recollection is it kind of bubbled up again - I mean, in 2015. Like, it didn't feel like it was fully¹⁶ resolved.

LEW: What happened in 2013 and beyond was Congress, you know, Senator McConnell in particular, found a way to structure it so that the president could make the hard decision about what the debt limit should be, and the president could bear all the political burden, as it were, of making the decision. And that's fine. What isn't fine is looking at a deadline where if you don't capitulate, you default. If you fail to pay any of your bills, you're in default. And I can tell you, as somebody who managed the kind of machinery¹⁷ behind planning on what happens if, there is no clean way to do that. It's not as if it's a modern computer program where you can put an algorithm in that says pay this, but don't pay that. You know, so if you can't pay all the bills out of a system, you can't pay any of them.

KHALID: So what did you take away from the situation, both, let's say, in 2011, but also in 2013 then, when you were Treasury secretary, about the best way to deal with this?

LEW: The best way to deal with it would be to have the debt limit not be a kind of catastrophic deadline. You know, it's hard to say, eliminate the debt limit.

KHALID: That's an argument we heard, I recall, last fall.

LEW: But eliminate really means - is deal with it in a way where you don't have to vote on it. The Constitution says only Congress can determine how much we borrow. Congress can say we could borrow as much as the president says we need to borrow. And I think, you know, it would have been a good thing if after 2013, '15, there had been serious discussion about how to move on so you didn't have these moments where the security of the United States was on the line.

You know, and looking at how this is going to play out over the coming months - the world is just emerging from the, you know, COVID economic crisis. We've seen moments of stress in Treasury markets. It's more than just an economic issue. It's really a national security issue. And I think the economics of it are terrible. You're going to see higher interest rates if we default. It's going to put a burden on regular working people. It's going to be a real, real problem.

KHALID: So now we hear the president say, the White House say, there will be no negotiations over this issue. Help me understand ultimately what that means. I mean, is the best-case scenario¹⁸ that some moderate Republicans will join forces with Democrats? And it's sort of like that's the only solution I keep hearing. And I'm wondering if there is an alternative.

LEW: I think - you know, what I've heard the White House say is several things. First, we won't negotiate over the debt limit, but let's sit down and talk about fiscal policy as we have to. You know, the Congress needs to set limits on appropriations¹⁹. There can be conversations about other kinds of tradeoffs that could be made to reduce the deficit. I also have heard the White House say, what's your plan? If you don't know what the plan is, you can't even begin a conversation. And we've heard a whole range of plans. But you got to remember that in a House where it only takes a handful of members to call for a vote of no confidence in the speaker, the plan that matters is, what plan can he take to the floor? I don't have a clue what that plan is.

KHALID: That was Jack Lew. He was Treasury secretary from 2013 to 2017 in the Obama administration.

(SOUNDBITE OF THE BAD PLUS AND JOSHUA REDMAN'S "AS THIS MOMENT SLIPS AWAY")

1 treasury   

n.宝库；国库，金库；文库

参考例句：

• The Treasury was opposed in principle to the proposals.财政部原则上反对这些提案。
• This book is a treasury of useful information.这本书是有价值的信息宝库。

2 negotiation   

n.谈判，协商

参考例句：

• They closed the deal in sugar after a week of negotiation.经过一星期的谈判，他们的食糖生意成交了。
• The negotiation dragged on until July.谈判一直拖到7月份。

3 negotiations   

协商( negotiation的名词复数 )； 谈判； 完成（难事）； 通过

参考例句：

• negotiations for a durable peace 为持久和平而进行的谈判
• Negotiations have failed to establish any middle ground. 谈判未能达成任何妥协。

4 transcript   

n.抄本，誊本，副本，肄业证书

参考例句：

• A transcript of the tapes was presented as evidence in court.一份录音带的文字本作为证据被呈交法庭。
• They wouldn't let me have a transcript of the interview.他们拒绝给我一份采访的文字整理稿。

5 jack   

n.插座，千斤顶，男人；v.抬起，提醒，扛举；n.（Jake）杰克

参考例句：

• I am looking for the headphone jack.我正在找寻头戴式耳机插孔。
• He lifted the car with a jack to change the flat tyre.他用千斤顶把车顶起来换下瘪轮胎。

6 navigate   

v.航行，飞行；导航，领航

参考例句：

• He was the first man to navigate the Atlantic by air.他是第一个飞越大西洋的人。
• Such boats can navigate on the Nile.这种船可以在尼罗河上航行。

7 vice   

n.坏事；恶习；[pl.]台钳，老虎钳；adj.副的

参考例句：

• He guarded himself against vice.他避免染上坏习惯。
• They are sunk in the depth of vice.他们堕入了罪恶的深渊。

8 spoke   

n.（车轮的）辐条；轮辐；破坏某人的计划；阻挠某人的行动 v.讲，谈（speak的过去式）；说；演说；从某种观点来说

参考例句：

• They sourced the spoke nuts from our company.他们的轮辐螺帽是从我们公司获得的。
• The spokes of a wheel are the bars that connect the outer ring to the centre.辐条是轮子上连接外圈与中心的条棒。

9 literally   

adv.照字面意义，逐字地；确实

参考例句：

• He translated the passage literally.他逐字逐句地翻译这段文字。
• Sometimes she would not sit down till she was literally faint.有时候，她不走到真正要昏厥了，决不肯坐下来。

10 random   

adj.随机的；任意的；n.偶然的(或随便的)行动

参考例句：

• The list is arranged in a random order.名单排列不分先后。
• On random inspection the meat was found to be bad.经抽查，发现肉变质了。

11 deficit   

n.亏空，亏损；赤字，逆差

参考例句：

• The directors have reported a deficit of 2.5 million dollars.董事们报告赤字为250万美元。
• We have a great deficit this year.我们今年有很大亏损。

12 concessions   

n.（尤指由政府或雇主给予的）特许权( concession的名词复数 )；承认；减价；（在某地的）特许经营权

参考例句：

• The firm will be forced to make concessions if it wants to avoid a strike. 要想避免罢工，公司将不得不作出一些让步。
• The concessions did little to placate the students. 让步根本未能平息学生的愤怒。

13 democrats   

n.民主主义者，民主人士( democrat的名词复数 )

参考例句：

• The Democrats held a pep rally on Capitol Hill yesterday. 民主党昨天在国会山召开了竞选誓师大会。
• The democrats organize a filibuster in the senate. 民主党党员组织了阻挠议事。 来自《简明英汉词典》

14 judgment   

n.审判；判断力，识别力，看法，意见

参考例句：

• The chairman flatters himself on his judgment of people.主席自认为他审视人比别人高明。
• He's a man of excellent judgment.他眼力过人。

15 fiscal   

adj.财政的，会计的，国库的，国库岁入的

参考例句：

• The increase of taxation is an important fiscal policy.增税是一项重要的财政政策。
• The government has two basic strategies of fiscal policy available.政府有两个可行的财政政策基本战略。

16 fully   

adv.完全地，全部地，彻底地；充分地

参考例句：

• The doctor asked me to breathe in,then to breathe out fully.医生让我先吸气，然后全部呼出。
• They soon became fully integrated into the local community.他们很快就完全融入了当地人的圈子。

17 machinery   

n.(总称)机械，机器；机构

参考例句：

• Has the machinery been put up ready for the broadcast?广播器材安装完毕了吗？
• Machinery ought to be well maintained all the time.机器应该随时注意维护。

18 scenario   

n.剧本，脚本；概要

参考例句：

• But the birth scenario is not completely accurate.然而分娩脚本并非完全准确的。
• This is a totally different scenario.这是完全不同的剧本。

19 appropriations   

n.挪用（appropriation的复数形式）

参考例句：

• More commonly, funding controls are imposed in the annual appropriations process. 更普遍的作法是，拨款控制被规定在年度拨款手续中。 来自英汉非文学 - 行政法
• Should the president veto the appropriations bill, it goes back to Congress. 假如总统否决了这项拨款提案，就把它退还给国会。 来自英汉非文学 - 政府文件