美国国家公共电台 NPR Megan Phelps-Roper: If You're Raised To Hate, Can You Reverse It?

 

GUY RAZ, HOST:

It's the TED¹ Radio Hour from NPR. I'm Guy Raz. And on the show today, ideas about dialogue and exchange. Because we're living at a time of pretty intense polarization, a lot of people are angry and confused. And we don't understand how or why people we know can think the way they do.

And all this means that we aren't really talking to each other. But is there a real argument to be made that we don't really have a choice. And if we don't have a choice, how do we do it? So let's start with a story about a dialogue that involved one of the most polarizing fringe groups in the U.S. So can you introduce yourself - like, your name and what you do?

MEGAN PHELPS-ROPER: My name is Megan Phelps-Roper. And what do I do? (Laughter) This is always the hardest question because right now, like, whenever I have, like, a sticker or something with my name on it and they put a title on it, it just says former member of Westboro Baptist Church.

RAZ: So you might have heard of Westboro Baptist Church. It's based in Kansas, and its members picket² the funerals of American soldiers. They celebrate natural disasters and tragedies as acts of God. And they believe God hates homosexuality.

(SOUNDBITE OF VIDEO)

PHELPS-ROPER: That is the message that we have to these people - Obey God or you're going to hell. The end.

RAZ: This is actually a clip of Megan Phelps-Roper at a protest in 2011.

(SOUNDBITE OF VIDEO)

PHELPS-ROPER: You are hilarious³. It is a commandment. It is a commandment.

We protested every single day. It was what we did. We picketed⁴ a lot of sporting events.

(SOUNDBITE OF VIDEO)

PHELPS-ROPER: Read the Bible. Read the words.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: I have read the Bible.

PHELPS-ROPER: We picketed, you know, concerts.

(SOUNDBITE OF VIDEO)

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: (Singing) Showed his wrath⁵ to thee.

PHELPS-ROPER: You know, pop stars who, you know, promote adultery and things like that.

(SOUNDBITE OF VIDEO)

UNIDENTIFED PROTESTERS: (Singing) You got more perversion⁶ to display, but there's no part of you that...

RAZ: When you would have, like, these hostile shouting matches on the picket line, did you ever listen to the people on the other side?

PHELPS-ROPER: No. Most of the time, you know, I would walk away from those conversations feeling like I had won. I never set out to have my mind changed.

RAZ: Do you recognize the person that you once were?

PHELPS-ROPER: I do. It's very strange. I watch it. And it's such a strange feeling because I know exactly where I was coming from and why I was saying what I was saying and why I believed it so strongly. And I also know exactly why I now think it's wrong and destructive.

RAZ: Until her mid-20s, these were the only exchanges Megan had with the outside world - shouting back and forth⁷, treating the other side with scorn and contempt. And if Megan hadn't engaged in a different kind of conversation, she might not ever have left her church. Megan tells her story from the TED stage.

(SOUNDBITE OF TED TALK)

PHELPS-ROPER: I was a blue-eyed, chubby-cheeked 5-year-old when I joined my family on the picket line for the first time. I'd stand on a street corner in the heavy Kansas humidity surrounded by a few dozen relatives with my tiny fists clutching a sign that I couldn't read yet. Gays are worthy⁸ of death. This was the beginning. Our protests soon became a daily occurrence and an international phenomenon.

And as a member of Westboro Baptist Church, I became a fixture⁹ on picket lines across the country. This was the focus of our whole lives. This was the only way for me to do good in a world that sits in Satan's lap. And like the rest of my 10 siblings¹⁰, I believed what I was taught with all my heart. And I pursued Westboro's agenda with a special sort of zeal¹¹.

RAZ: For people who don't know anything about Westboro Baptist Church, what - how big is it?

PHELPS-ROPER: Westboro is a church of about 70 to 80 people.

RAZ: Wow, so small.

PHELPS-ROPER: Yes. Most of them are my immediate¹² and extended family. It was started by my grandfather, Fred Phelps. And my family was incredibly close. So I was surrounded by people who loved me and whom I loved. And I was convinced that we were right.

RAZ: When was the first time you were confronted with somebody from, like, outside your bubble, you know, who challenged your views, who wanted to actually talk to you - talk to you about, you know, the way you felt and wanted to try to convince you that you were wrong?

PHELPS-ROPER: I encountered a lot of people over the years who wanted to challenge my ideas and the church's ideas. But the problem was that, you know, when you're standing¹³ on a picket line, even if you have somebody who really wants to have a dialogue, it's really hard to get past, you know, shouty (ph) talking points.

I had been raised to be wary¹⁴ of these people - right? - and to even, especially, be wary of their kindness because then they're - you know, you sort of see them as crafty¹⁵ deceivers like people who are just trying to, you know, sweet talk you into doing the wrong thing. And so it wasn't until I got on Twitter that things really started to change for me.

RAZ: Wait, Twitter?

PHELPS-ROPER: Yeah.

RAZ: Because Twitter is not exactly the - like a place that people think of when they think of civility and dialogue.

PHELPS-ROPER: Right (laughter).

(SOUNDBITE OF TED TALK)

PHELPS-ROPER: Initially¹⁶, the people I encountered on Twitter were just as hostile as I expected. They were the digital version of the screaming hordes¹⁷ I've been seeing at protests since I was a kid. But in the midst of that digital brawl¹⁸, a strange pattern developed. Someone would arrive at my profile with the usual rage and scorn. I would respond with a custom mix of Bible verses, pop culture references and smiley faces. They would be understandably confused and caught off guard. But then a conversation would ensue. And it was civil, full of genuine curiosity on both sides.

Sometimes the conversation even bled into real life. People I'd sparred with on Twitter would come out to the picket line to see me when I protested in their city. There was no confusion about our positions, but the line between friend and foe¹⁹ was becoming blurred²⁰. We'd started to see each other as human beings, and it changed the way we spoke²¹ to one another. It took time, but eventually these conversations planted seeds of doubt in me.

My friends on Twitter took the time to understand Westboro's doctrines²² and in doing so, they were able to find inconsistencies I'd missed my entire life. Why did we advocate the death penalty for gays when Jesus said, let he who is without sin cast the first stone? How could we claim to love our neighbor while at the same time praying for God to destroy them? These realizations²⁴ were life-altering.

Once I saw that we were not the ultimate arbiters²⁵ of divine truth but flawed human beings, I couldn't justify²⁶ our actions, especially our cruel practice of protesting funerals and celebrating human tragedy. And eventually, it made it impossible for me to stay. In spite of overwhelming grief and terror, I left Westboro in 2012. In those days just after I left, the instinct to hide was almost paralyzing. I wanted to hide from the judgment²⁷ of my family who would never speak to me again. And I wanted to hide from the world I'd rejected for so long - people who had no reason at all to give me a second chance after a lifetime of antagonism²⁸.

That period was full of turmoil²⁹. But one part I return to often is a surprising realization²³ I had during that time - that it was a relief and a privilege to let go of the harsh judgments³⁰ that instinctively³¹ ran through my mind about nearly every person I saw. I realized that now I needed to learn. I needed to listen.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

RAZ: It seems like you could not have changed your life and left the church and forced yourself to rethink everything you believed without those conversations - without that exchange of ideas.

PHELPS-ROPER: Absolutely. I - and maybe decades down the road, maybe somehow I would have found a way to argue myself into this thing - maybe - but I doubt it.

RAZ: It's interesting because, I mean, lots people say, hey, you know, I don't want to have a conversation with this person who has these reprehensible³² views because I don't want to acknowledge that those views are legitimate³³ in any way. And you can understand why somebody would feel that way against, you know, somebody who was super hateful who wanted to hurt you simply because of who you are or what you were born as. But on the other hand, you're saying, actually, you still have to engage those people because you have to understand how their mind is working in order to explain why that is wrong.

PHELPS-ROPER: Right. I mean - and I'm not saying, you know, every oppressed person has to go to the person who is oppressing them and explain, you know, why they're wrong. But some people have to do that. Like, if we want these ideas - we want them to - we want them to die, you know? We want them to - or to be, at least - at the very least, on the very, very margins³⁴ of society. I think that we have to be able to effectively argue against them.

You're not letting go of your truth but understanding someone else's. You need that if you're going to build, you know, a bridge and get across and get through.

(SOUNDBITE OF TED TALK)

PHELPS-ROPER: This has been at the front of my mind lately because I can't help but see in our public discourse³⁵ so many of the same destructive impulses that ruled my former church. We celebrate tolerance³⁶ and diversity more than at any other time in memory, and still, we grow more and more divided.

We want good things, but the path we've chosen looks so much like the one I walked away from four years ago. I remember this path. It will not take us where we want to go. We have to talk and listen to people we disagree with. And I will always be inspired to do so by those people I encountered on Twitter - apparent enemies who became my beloved friends.

My friends on Twitter didn't abandon their beliefs or their principles, only their scorn. They channeled their infinitely³⁷ justifiable³⁸ offense³⁹ and came to me with pointed⁴⁰ questions tempered with kindness and humor. They approached me as a human being and that was more transformative than two full decades of outrage⁴¹, disdain⁴² and violence.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

RAZ: I'm wondering how you have those difficult conversations with people who are, you know, kind of impenetrable. I mean, you left the church. Your family doesn't talk to you anymore. So is there any way you could ever have a dialogue with them about the things you believe now?

PHELPS-ROPER: I do. I mean, that's part of what I use Twitter for now. It's a way for me to - you know, I still, you know, follow my families. They have, you know, a few dozen Twitter accounts. And I read what they have to say, and I do reach out. And I do try to challenge them. And every interaction we have is an opportunity to, you know, change their minds so that they're not being an active force for destruction in the world.

I feel so strongly, passionate⁴³ and hopeful and optimistic of what humans can accomplish. Like, I mean, just from my own experience, looking back, I was incredibly close minded. I was blinded by certainty. My family sees what I'm doing now and thinks that I'm, you know, basically satanic. But they're definitely listening. People can change, and I just feel incredibly hopeful.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

RAZ: Megan Phelps-Roper left the Westboro Baptist Church in 2012. You can see her entire talk at ted.com. Our show today - ideas about dialogue and exchange. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to the TED Radio Hour from NPR.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

1 ted   

vt.翻晒，撒，撒开

参考例句：

• The invaders gut ted the village.侵略者把村中财物洗劫一空。
• She often teds the corn when it's sunny.天好的时候她就翻晒玉米。

2 picket   

n.纠察队；警戒哨；v.设置纠察线；布置警卫

参考例句：

• They marched to the factory and formed a picket.他们向工厂前进,并组成了纠察队。
• Some of the union members did not want to picket.工会的一些会员不想担任罢工纠察员。

3 hilarious   

adj.充满笑声的，欢闹的；[反]depressed

参考例句：

• The party got quite hilarious after they brought more wine.在他们又拿来更多的酒之后，派对变得更加热闹起来。
• We stop laughing because the show was so hilarious.我们笑个不停，因为那个节目太搞笑了。

4 picketed   

用尖桩围住（picket的过去式与过去分词形式）

参考例句：

• They picketed the restaurant. 他们在饭馆外设置纠察。
• Humboldt riotously picketed Von Trenk but the play was a hit. 尽管洪堡肆意破坏《冯·特伦克》的上演，然而这个剧还是轰动一时。

5 wrath   

n.愤怒，愤慨，暴怒

参考例句：

• His silence marked his wrath. 他的沉默表明了他的愤怒。
• The wrath of the people is now aroused. 人们被激怒了。

6 perversion   

n.曲解；堕落；反常

参考例句：

• In its most general sense,corruption means the perversion or abandonment.就其最一般的意义上说，舞弊就是堕落，就是背离准则。
• Her account was a perversion of the truth.她所讲的歪曲了事实。

7 forth   

adv.向前；向外，往外

参考例句：

• The wind moved the trees gently back and forth.风吹得树轻轻地来回摇晃。
• He gave forth a series of works in rapid succession.他很快连续发表了一系列的作品。

8 worthy   

adj.(of)值得的，配得上的；有价值的

参考例句：

• I did not esteem him to be worthy of trust.我认为他不值得信赖。
• There occurred nothing that was worthy to be mentioned.没有值得一提的事发生。

9 fixture   

n.固定设备；预定日期；比赛时间；定期存款

参考例句：

• Lighting fixture must be installed at once.必须立即安装照明设备。
• The cordless kettle may now be a fixture in most kitchens.无绳电热水壶现在可能是多数厨房的固定设备。

10 siblings   

n.兄弟，姐妹( sibling的名词复数 )

参考例句：

• A triplet sleeps amongst its two siblings. 一个三胞胎睡在其两个同胞之间。 来自《简明英汉词典》
• She has no way of tracking the donor or her half-siblings down. 她没办法找到那个捐精者或她的兄弟姐妹。 来自时文部分

11 zeal   

n.热心，热情，热忱

参考例句：

• Revolutionary zeal caught them up,and they joined the army.革命热情激励他们，于是他们从军了。
• They worked with great zeal to finish the project.他们热情高涨地工作，以期完成这个项目。

12 immediate   

adj.立即的；直接的，最接近的；紧靠的

参考例句：

• His immediate neighbours felt it their duty to call.他的近邻认为他们有责任去拜访。
• We declared ourselves for the immediate convocation of the meeting.我们主张立即召开这个会议。

13 standing   

n.持续，地位；adj.永久的，不动的，直立的，不流动的

参考例句：

• After the earthquake only a few houses were left standing.地震过后只有几幢房屋还立着。
• They're standing out against any change in the law.他们坚决反对对法律做任何修改。

14 wary   

adj.谨慎的，机警的，小心的

参考例句：

• He is wary of telling secrets to others.他谨防向他人泄露秘密。
• Paula frowned,suddenly wary.宝拉皱了皱眉头，突然警惕起来。

15 crafty   

adj.狡猾的，诡诈的

参考例句：

• He admired the old man for his crafty plan.他敬佩老者的神机妙算。
• He was an accomplished politician and a crafty autocrat.他是个有造诣的政治家，也是个狡黠的独裁者。

16 initially   

adv.最初，开始

参考例句：

• The ban was initially opposed by the US.这一禁令首先遭到美国的反对。
• Feathers initially developed from insect scales.羽毛最初由昆虫的翅瓣演化而来。

17 hordes   

n.移动着的一大群( horde的名词复数 )；部落

参考例句：

• There are always hordes of tourists here in the summer. 夏天这里总有成群结队的游客。
• Hordes of journalists jostled for position outside the conference hall. 大群记者在会堂外争抢位置。 来自《简明英汉词典》

18 brawl   

n.大声争吵，喧嚷；v.吵架，对骂

参考例句：

• They had nothing better to do than brawl in the street.他们除了在街上斗殴做不出什么好事。
• I don't want to see our two neighbours engaged in a brawl.我不希望我们两家吵架吵得不可开交。

19 foe   

n.敌人，仇敌

参考例句：

• He knew that Karl could be an implacable foe.他明白卡尔可能会成为他的死敌。
• A friend is a friend;a foe is a foe;one must be clearly distinguished from the other.敌是敌，友是友，必须分清界限。

20 blurred   

v.（使）变模糊( blur的过去式和过去分词 )；（使）难以区分；模模糊糊；迷离

参考例句：

• She suffered from dizziness and blurred vision. 她饱受头晕目眩之苦。
• Their lazy, blurred voices fell pleasantly on his ears. 他们那种慢吞吞、含糊不清的声音在他听起来却很悦耳。 来自《简明英汉词典》

21 spoke   

n.（车轮的）辐条；轮辐；破坏某人的计划；阻挠某人的行动 v.讲，谈（speak的过去式）；说；演说；从某种观点来说

参考例句：

• They sourced the spoke nuts from our company.他们的轮辐螺帽是从我们公司获得的。
• The spokes of a wheel are the bars that connect the outer ring to the centre.辐条是轮子上连接外圈与中心的条棒。

22 doctrines   

n.教条( doctrine的名词复数 )；教义；学说；（政府政策的）正式声明

参考例句：

• To modern eyes, such doctrines appear harsh, even cruel. 从现代的角度看，这样的教义显得苛刻，甚至残酷。 来自《简明英汉词典》
• His doctrines have seduced many into error. 他的学说把许多人诱入歧途。 来自《现代汉英综合大词典》

23 realization   

n.实现；认识到，深刻了解

参考例句：

• We shall gladly lend every effort in our power toward its realization.我们将乐意为它的实现而竭尽全力。
• He came to the realization that he would never make a good teacher.他逐渐认识到自己永远不会成为好老师。

24 realizations   

认识，领会( realization的名词复数 )； 实现

参考例句：

• Popular realizations of MPI standard are CHIMP and LAM and so on. 目前，公用的MPI实现有CHIMP、lam等。
• The author presents some realizations from the certificate assurance work. 本文介绍了笔者在ISO9001质量体系认证工作中的几点体会。

25 arbiters   

仲裁人，裁决者( arbiter的名词复数 )

参考例句：

• In the forensicfield, the final arbiters of quality are the courts. 在法医学领域，质量的最后仲裁者是法庭。
• They are, increasingly, arbiters of which types of borrowers get credit. 它们正越来越多地充当决定哪几种借款人可获得信贷的裁决人角色。

26 justify   

vt.证明…正当(或有理)，为…辩护

参考例句：

• He tried to justify his absence with lame excuses.他想用站不住脚的借口为自己的缺席辩解。
• Can you justify your rude behavior to me?你能向我证明你的粗野行为是有道理的吗？

27 judgment   

n.审判；判断力，识别力，看法，意见

参考例句：

• The chairman flatters himself on his judgment of people.主席自认为他审视人比别人高明。
• He's a man of excellent judgment.他眼力过人。

28 antagonism   

n.对抗，敌对，对立

参考例句：

• People did not feel a strong antagonism for established policy.人们没有对既定方针产生强烈反应。
• There is still much antagonism between trades unions and the oil companies.工会和石油公司之间仍然存在着相当大的敌意。

29 turmoil   

n.骚乱，混乱，动乱

参考例句：

• His mind was in such a turmoil that he couldn't get to sleep.内心的纷扰使他无法入睡。
• The robbery put the village in a turmoil.抢劫使全村陷入混乱。

30 judgments   

判断( judgment的名词复数 )； 鉴定； 评价； 审判

参考例句：

• A peculiar austerity marked his judgments of modern life. 他对现代生活的批评带着一种特殊的苛刻。
• He is swift with his judgments. 他判断迅速。

31 instinctively   

adv.本能地

参考例句：

• As he leaned towards her she instinctively recoiled. 他向她靠近，她本能地往后缩。 来自《简明英汉词典》
• He knew instinctively where he would find her. 他本能地知道在哪儿能找到她。 来自《简明英汉词典》

32 reprehensible   

adj.该受责备的

参考例句：

• Lying is not seen as being morally reprehensible in any strong way.人们并不把撒谎当作一件应该大加谴责的事儿。
• It was reprehensible of him to be so disloyal.他如此不忠，应受谴责。

33 legitimate   

adj.合法的，合理的，合乎逻辑的；v.使合法

参考例句：

• Sickness is a legitimate reason for asking for leave.生病是请假的一个正当的理由。
• That's a perfectly legitimate fear.怀有这种恐惧完全在情理之中。

34 margins   

边( margin的名词复数 )； 利润； 页边空白； 差数

参考例句：

• They have always had to make do with relatively small profit margins. 他们不得不经常设法应付较少的利润额。
• To create more space between the navigation items, add left and right margins to the links. 在每个项目间留更多的空隙，加左或者右的margins来定义链接。

35 discourse   

n.论文，演说；谈话；话语；vi.讲述，著述

参考例句：

• We'll discourse on the subject tonight.我们今晚要谈论这个问题。
• He fell into discourse with the customers who were drinking at the counter.他和站在柜台旁的酒客谈了起来。

36 tolerance   

n.宽容；容忍，忍受；耐药力；公差

参考例句：

• Tolerance is one of his strengths.宽容是他的一个优点。
• Human beings have limited tolerance of noise.人类对噪音的忍耐力有限。

37 infinitely   

adv.无限地，无穷地

参考例句：

• There is an infinitely bright future ahead of us.我们有无限光明的前途。
• The universe is infinitely large.宇宙是无限大的。

38 justifiable   

adj.有理由的，无可非议的

参考例句：

• What he has done is hardly justifiable.他的所作所为说不过去。
• Justifiable defense is the act being exempted from crimes.正当防卫不属于犯罪行为。

39 offense   

n.犯规，违法行为；冒犯，得罪

参考例句：

• I hope you will not take any offense at my words. 对我讲的话请别见怪。
• His words gave great offense to everybody present.他的发言冲犯了在场的所有人。

40 pointed   

adj.尖的，直截了当的

参考例句：

• He gave me a very sharp pointed pencil.他给我一支削得非常尖的铅笔。
• She wished to show Mrs.John Dashwood by this pointed invitation to her brother.她想通过对达茨伍德夫人提出直截了当的邀请向她的哥哥表示出来。

41 outrage   

n.暴行，侮辱，愤怒；vt.凌辱，激怒

参考例句：

• When he heard the news he reacted with a sense of outrage.他得悉此事时义愤填膺。
• We should never forget the outrage committed by the Japanese invaders.我们永远都不应该忘记日本侵略者犯下的暴行。

42 disdain   

n.鄙视，轻视；v.轻视，鄙视，不屑

参考例句：

• Some people disdain labour.有些人轻视劳动。
• A great man should disdain flatterers.伟大的人物应鄙视献媚者。

43 passionate   

adj.热情的，热烈的，激昂的，易动情的，易怒的，性情暴躁的

参考例句：

• He is said to be the most passionate man.据说他是最有激情的人。
• He is very passionate about the project.他对那个项目非常热心。