美国国家公共电台 NPR 'Lincoln In The Bardo' Pictures An American Saint Of Sorrow

 

SCOTT SIMON, HOST:

A writer who's acclaimed¹ as a genius of the short story has written his first novel. It reads like part "Our Town," part ghost story, even part Ken² Burns. It's a story that gives voice to a child who's died and resonance³ to the silence of his father who was both enveloped⁴ by and is the instrument of much grief. "Lincoln In The Bardo" is a novel that grows from the seed of the real-life death of Willie Lincoln, the 11-year-old son of Abe and Mary Lincoln, in 1862. It is the first novel by George Saunders, a longtime contributor to The New Yorker and GQ, still a professor at Syracuse. He's received Guggenheim and MacArthur Fellowships, an Academy Award from the American Academy of Arts and Letters and is certainly the best-known writer to come out of the Colorado School of Mines. George Saunders joins us now from his home in Watsonville, Calif. Thanks so much for being with us.

GEORGE SAUNDERS: Oh, thanks for having me.

SIMON: We should explain the bardo of the title is a Tibetan concept, yes?

SAUNDERS: Yeah. It actually is - just means transitional zone or transitional phase. And so, for example, we're in one. We're in the bardo right now that goes from birth to death. And the book takes place just after that in the bardo that goes from death to whatever's next. So in the Buddhist⁵ world, it would be reincarnation.

SIMON: Yeah. And I'm - I must say a lot of the people who we encounter in the bardo don't seem to quite know that they're dead.

SAUNDERS: Yeah. They don't know, and also they are there because something just didn't happen for them here on Earth. You know, they were frustrated⁶ or unhappy or unlucky in love. And so they had that feeling of, one, I can't be dead because I'm not done and, two, as long as I don't turn my mind to my own death, I can stay here a while until I'm allowed to go back into the real game.

SIMON: Yeah. Is this a short story that kind of just grew or what?

SAUNDERS: It is. You know, I had only written stories, and I was so happy with that and even maybe a little proud of it, you know, that I'd never written a novel. And this one - I heard this anecdote⁷ many years ago during the Clinton presidency⁸ about Lincoln having been so grief-stricken that he actually returned to the crypt one night to sort of commune with his son's body. And so I carried that idea around for about 20 years, almost trying to shuck it off. It seemed really difficult, you know? And then, you know, four years ago, I just was like, jeez, this has been bothering me all these years. Maybe it's time to give it a try. And I kind of almost had a contract with the book, like don't blow it up on me. Be a story if you can be a story. If you can be a nice paragraph, that's fine. So I kind of, you know, kept it on a short leash⁹, but it just kept kind of growing. So, you know, I finally said, OK, you are what you are.

SIMON: I want to give people an idea of the extraordinary structure and wordplay of the book. If we could read a section, and I'd like you to set it up for us, two characters will be speaking.

SAUNDERS: Sure. So these are actually - approximately ghosts, and they're bringing Willie Lincoln's spirit back to the crypt where he's buried. And they're - for reasons that are kind of complicated, they're trying to get him to just go on to the next thing. He's trying very hard to stay there. He misses his parents. So here I think they're trying to convince him that he'll never see any of his family again and it's better for him just to accept his fate.

SIMON: I will be the voice of the ghost, if I might call him that, of Hans Vollmann, 46-year-old guy with wooden teeth who got hit in the head by a beam.

SAUNDERS: Yes. And then I'll do the Reverend Everly Thomas, who's kind of a longtime denizen¹⁰ of the place and former priest.

SIMON: (Reading) We embraced the boy at the door of his white, stone home.

SAUNDERS: (Reading) He gave us a shy smile, not untouched by trepidation¹¹ at what was to come.

SIMON: (Reading) Go on, Mr. Bevins said it gently. It is for the best.

SAUNDERS: (Reading) Off you go, Mr. Vollman said, nothing left for you here.

SIMON: (Reading) Goodbye then, the lad said. Nothing scary about it, Mr. Bevins said. Perfectly¹² natural.

SAUNDERS: (Reading) Then it happened.

SIMON: (Reading) An extraordinary occurrence.

SAUNDERS: (Reading) Unprecedented¹³ really.

SIMON: (Reading) The boy's gaze moved past us.

SAUNDERS: (Reading) He seemed to catch sight of something beyond.

SIMON: (Reading) His face lit up with joy.

SAUNDERS: (Reading) Father, he said.

SIMON: For any of us who's ever - who've ever been there, we recognize that's what happens. I don't mean in death. I mean with someone who's leaving, yeah.

SAUNDERS: Yeah Well, that was one of the kind of surprises of the book. You know, you always hope that a book will lead you somewhere that you didn't plan to go. And in this one, it was kind of unrelenting in leading me to think about that strange conundrum¹⁴ we're in here. Like, you know, we seem to be born to love. That seems to be what we do naturally and what we crave¹⁵ to do. And then all along, you know, we sort of know that everything is conditional¹⁶. So how do you, in this world, live joyfully¹⁷ and productively in the face of those two truths? And what I do mostly is just deny the second one. But in the book, sort of showing Lincoln at this pivotal moment, he's not in a position where he can decide to live in denial. So it was kind of a harsh taskmaster, in some ways, because you'd get up in the morning and say, OK, let's go right, and then, you know, immediately you're led back to that conundrum.

SIMON: Yeah. I want to ask you about Lincoln. The image we - the most-beloved American of history - but the image we have of him is often a little frozen, and maybe that's because we, you know, we see him so much in statues or these unmoving portraits. He had a famous and even profane¹⁸ sense of humor, though.

SAUNDERS: Yes.

SIMON: But he's kind of our American saint of sorrow, isn't he?

SAUNDERS: He is, and I think rightly so. I mean, he was, it seems, quite depressed¹⁹ at times and was in a kind of heroic struggle against the depression. You know, what struck me was that he had this sort of suite²⁰ of characteristics, that certainly sorrow was one of them. People talked a lot about his kindness, also his ability to kind of get into a situation where people like me, for example, would be defensive²¹ or aggressive or be very concerned with asserting my correctness, and he would kind of step back and it seemed that his desire was always for the outcome to be positive, even if he had to take it on the chin a little bit or break something up with a joke.

He really had a long view of how to make things work, which I think was related to this deep concern he had for other people, not feigned²² and not political but a kind of almost automatic feeling of compassion²³ for the people around him. And that was really instructive to me, especially in the way that in those last five years of his life, from what I could see, he just went through this exponential period of growth where he, by the end, you know, you felt like he was, in some ways, representing an America that we still haven't quite gotten to in terms of true equality and the idea that love could actually be kind of a political force.

SIMON: Yeah, you know, but I've got to ask you, in advance of the emails, how do we account for the fact that on both the left and the right of the time he was often - I don't mean just once or twice or on the edge - he was often assailed²⁴ as a butcher.

SAUNDERS: And a dictator and all kinds of things. And, you know, the thing - when I was writing this, I kind of thought, yeah, maybe at the high levels of human sensibility that we had to be in as a culture during that time, maybe you need somebody who's a saint and a butcher, you know, a great empath and a dictator. In other words, the idea that maybe you actually can't neatly²⁵ reconcile what he did. And I think that that sort of echoes his experience because there are things where he talks about, one, trying to understand what God is and what God might want from him, and his conclusion is kind of mind blowing. He sort of says, well, whatever God is, God put this in motion. God put slavery in motion. God put this solution in motion.

We are now seeing sort of the untying²⁶ of that tremendous knot. And my role as president is to discern that will. But it's kind of getting beyond my understanding, so I'm just basically standing²⁷ here watching that will assert itself. And it's asserting itself through blood. We're reversing ourselves out that terrible doorway²⁸ of slavery through this butchery that I'm commanding. So, you know, I find - I love to be in control of my attitude, you know, to know what I think about something and just kind of sit there smugly (ph) on top of the data.

But of course, as we're all finding out now, I think we aren't actually in control of the data, and we don't necessarily understand what's happening in real time. That seems to be a skill set that Lincoln had, namely to continue to try to pursue positive ends even in the face of real confusion. And I don't mean, like, surficial confusion but deep existential confusion. I get the sense that he didn't think he was right most of the time. He was - he thought he was blundering but blundering vaguely²⁹ in the direction of positivity.

SIMON: George Saunders, a new novelist (laughter). His novel, "Lincoln In The Bardo." Thank you so much for being with us.

SAUNDERS: I really enjoyed it. Thank you.

1 acclaimed   

adj.受人欢迎的

参考例句：

• They acclaimed him as the best writer of the year. 他们称赞他为当年的最佳作者。
• Confuscius is acclaimed as a great thinker. 孔子被赞誉为伟大的思想家。

2 ken   

n.视野，知识领域

参考例句：

• Such things are beyond my ken.我可不懂这些事。
• Abstract words are beyond the ken of children.抽象的言辞超出小孩所理解的范围.

3 resonance   

n.洪亮；共鸣；共振

参考例句：

• Playing the piano sets up resonance in those glass ornaments.一弹钢琴那些玻璃饰物就会产生共振。
• The areas under the two resonance envelopes are unequal.两个共振峰下面的面积是不相等的。

4 enveloped   

v.包围，笼罩，包住( envelop的过去式和过去分词 )

参考例句：

• She was enveloped in a huge white towel. 她裹在一条白色大毛巾里。
• Smoke from the burning house enveloped the whole street. 燃烧着的房子冒出的浓烟笼罩了整条街。 来自《简明英汉词典》

5 Buddhist   

adj./n.佛教的，佛教徒

参考例句：

• The old lady fell down in adoration before Buddhist images.那老太太在佛像面前顶礼膜拜。
• In the eye of the Buddhist,every worldly affair is vain.在佛教徒的眼里，人世上一切事情都是空的。

6 frustrated   

adj.挫败的，失意的，泄气的v.使不成功( frustrate的过去式和过去分词 )；挫败；使受挫折；令人沮丧

参考例句：

• It's very easy to get frustrated in this job. 这个工作很容易令人懊恼。
• The bad weather frustrated all our hopes of going out. 恶劣的天气破坏了我们出行的愿望。 来自《简明英汉词典》

7 anecdote   

n.轶事，趣闻，短故事

参考例句：

• He departed from the text to tell an anecdote.他偏离课文讲起了一则轶事。
• It had never been more than a family anecdote.那不过是个家庭趣谈罢了。

8 presidency   

n.总统(校长，总经理)的职位(任期)

参考例句：

• Roosevelt was elected four times to the presidency of the United States.罗斯福连续当选四届美国总统。
• Two candidates are emerging as contestants for the presidency.两位候选人最终成为总统职位竞争者。

9 leash   

n.牵狗的皮带，束缚；v.用皮带系住

参考例句：

• I reached for the leash,but the dog got in between.我伸手去拿系狗绳，但被狗挡住了路。
• The dog strains at the leash,eager to be off.狗拼命地扯拉皮带，想挣脱开去。

10 denizen   

n.居民，外籍居民

参考例句：

• In this country children of denizen go to school free.在这个国家外籍居民的孩子免费上学。
• His greatest danger now lie in the unknown denizen of the water.现在他最大的危险是未知的水中居住者。

11 trepidation   

n.惊恐，惶恐

参考例句：

• The men set off in fear and trepidation.这群人惊慌失措地出发了。
• The threat of an epidemic caused great alarm and trepidation.流行病猖獗因而人心惶惶。

12 perfectly   

adv.完美地，无可非议地，彻底地

参考例句：

• The witnesses were each perfectly certain of what they said.证人们个个对自己所说的话十分肯定。
• Everything that we're doing is all perfectly above board.我们做的每件事情都是光明正大的。

13 unprecedented   

adj.无前例的，新奇的

参考例句：

• The air crash caused an unprecedented number of deaths.这次空难的死亡人数是空前的。
• A flood of this sort is really unprecedented.这样大的洪水真是十年九不遇。

14 conundrum   

n.谜语；难题

参考例句：

• Let me give you some history about a conundrum.让我给你们一些关于谜题的历史。
• Scientists had focused on two explanations to solve this conundrum.科学家已锁定两种解释来解开这个难题。

15 crave   

vt.渴望得到，迫切需要，恳求，请求

参考例句：

• Many young children crave attention.许多小孩子渴望得到关心。
• You may be craving for some fresh air.你可能很想呼吸呼吸新鲜空气。

16 conditional   

adj.条件的，带有条件的

参考例句：

• My agreement is conditional on your help.你肯帮助我才同意。
• There are two forms of most-favored-nation treatment:conditional and unconditional.最惠国待遇有两种形式:有条件的和无条件的。

17 joyfully   

adv. 喜悦地, 高兴地

参考例句：

• She tripped along joyfully as if treading on air. 她高兴地走着，脚底下轻飘飘的。
• During these first weeks she slaved joyfully. 在最初的几周里，她干得很高兴。

18 profane   

adj.亵神的，亵渎的；vt.亵渎，玷污

参考例句：

• He doesn't dare to profane the name of God.他不敢亵渎上帝之名。
• His profane language annoyed us.他亵渎的言语激怒了我们。

19 depressed   

adj.沮丧的，抑郁的，不景气的，萧条的

参考例句：

• When he was depressed,he felt utterly divorced from reality.他心情沮丧时就感到完全脱离了现实。
• His mother was depressed by the sad news.这个坏消息使他的母亲意志消沉。

20 suite   

n.一套(家具)；套房；随从人员

参考例句：

• She has a suite of rooms in the hotel.她在那家旅馆有一套房间。
• That is a nice suite of furniture.那套家具很不错。

21 defensive   

adj.防御的；防卫的；防守的

参考例句：

• Their questions about the money put her on the defensive.他们问到钱的问题，使她警觉起来。
• The Government hastily organized defensive measures against the raids.政府急忙布置了防卫措施抵御空袭。

22 feigned   

a.假装的，不真诚的

参考例句：

• He feigned indifference to criticism of his work. 他假装毫不在意别人批评他的作品。
• He accepted the invitation with feigned enthusiasm. 他假装热情地接受了邀请。

23 compassion   

n.同情，怜悯

参考例句：

• He could not help having compassion for the poor creature.他情不自禁地怜悯起那个可怜的人来。
• Her heart was filled with compassion for the motherless children.她对于没有母亲的孩子们充满了怜悯心。

24 assailed   

v.攻击( assail的过去式和过去分词 )；困扰；质问；毅然应对

参考例句：

• He was assailed with fierce blows to the head. 他的头遭到猛烈殴打。
• He has been assailed by bad breaks all these years. 这些年来他接二连三地倒霉。 来自《用法词典》

25 neatly   

adv.整洁地，干净地，灵巧地，熟练地

参考例句：

• Sailors know how to wind up a long rope neatly.水手们知道怎样把一条大绳利落地缠好。
• The child's dress is neatly gathered at the neck.那孩子的衣服在领口处打着整齐的皱褶。

26 untying   

untie的现在分词

参考例句：

• The tying of bow ties is an art; the untying is easy. 打领带是一种艺术，解领带则很容易。
• As they were untying the colt, its owners asked them, "Why are you untying the colt?" 33他们解驴驹的时候，主人问他们说，解驴驹作什么？

27 standing   

n.持续，地位；adj.永久的，不动的，直立的，不流动的

参考例句：

• After the earthquake only a few houses were left standing.地震过后只有几幢房屋还立着。
• They're standing out against any change in the law.他们坚决反对对法律做任何修改。

28 doorway   

n.门口，(喻)入门；门路，途径

参考例句：

• They huddled in the shop doorway to shelter from the rain.他们挤在商店门口躲雨。
• Mary suddenly appeared in the doorway.玛丽突然出现在门口。

29 vaguely   

adv.含糊地，暖昧地

参考例句：

• He had talked vaguely of going to work abroad.他含糊其词地说了到国外工作的事。
• He looked vaguely before him with unseeing eyes.他迷迷糊糊的望着前面，对一切都视而不见。