美国国家公共电台 NPR Sickened Russian Opposition Leader Blames Poison Ordered By Russian Special Services（在线收听）

MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST:

And we begin this hour with the story of Russia, a Kremlin critic and maybe poison. This is the story of Vladimir Kara-Murza.

VLADIMIR KARA-MURZA: This time it began about 4:30 in the morning. So I woke up because my heart was beginning to race unbelievably fast, unbelievably quick.

KELLY: Kara-Murza believes he was poisoned twice - victim of what he calls a Kremlin policy of eliminating its opponents. He's a former journalist, and a pro-democracy activist, who has repeatedly and publicly criticized President Vladimir Putin. One month ago today, Kara-Murza was in a Moscow hospital in a coma being kept alive by artificial respiration. He's still recovering. He's now being treated by doctors here in the U.S. We invited him to come to NPR and tell his story.

KARA-MURZA: Before, I couldn't even get up properly. I started feeling really weak, and I felt sweating really badly, profusely. And my blood pressure dropped to basically non-existent. And the worst thing, this time I was really struggling to breathe, and that's really - I can tell you that's really, not just painful but really scary. This was not the first time this happened, and I didn't want to admit that this was the same thing because, as you can imagine, it was a very traumatic experience like two years ago, and I was very fortunate to survive then. I'm very fortunate to be here with you today because both time doctors told my wife that I had about a 5 percent chance.

KELLY: And your wife, we should mention, is - was back in the States.

KARA-MURZA: Yes, she was in the U.S. with our children. But I called her straight away, and I said this is what is happening. And so she called the same doctor who saved my life last time two years ago. And he said, yeah, bring him to me. And of course, he knew exactly what it was because it was exactly the same thing that happened two years ago. So I was still kind of conscious. I remember it in a haze. And then I passed out. And I don't remember anything for the next two, two and a half weeks. And...

KELLY: And you're in a coma and in the hospital in Moscow.

KARA-MURZA: Yeah, I was in a coma for most of that time. And then, when I came out of coma, I still don't remember.

KELLY: And just to share for people who can't see you, it's incredible hearing you relate the state that you were in one month ago. You walked in on your own two feet to this interview. You look healthy young man in your 30s in your prime right now. That's astonishing.

KARA-MURZA: Well, you're being too kind, first of all. I may look OK. I certainly don't - I don't feel the way you're describing. But again, it was worse last time. They didn't know what it was.

KELLY: They didn't know what they were treating.

KARA-MURZA: Yes. Now, the way this toxin or this poison works is it shuts off organs one by one - one after another. So when doctors start treating something, let's say the heart, about half an hour later, something else shut down. So they start treating, say the kidneys, then the liver shuts down, then the lungs. And also what they also did both times, they put me on hemodialysis. So they began completely cleaning the blood in the whole body. And this is both times when I began stabilizing.

KELLY: Vladimir Kara-Murza, you are using the word poison. What evidence do you have that this was in fact poison?

KARA-MURZA: Well, first of all, that's the official diagnosis from my discharge papers from my Russian hospital.

KELLY: From the Russian hospital.

KARA-MURZA: Toxic action by an unidentified substance. So translating from medical to normal language, that's poisoning and...

KELLY: You also had - the doctors collected blood samples, hair samples from you at the hospital. Where have those been sent, and what have you heard back?

KARA-MURZA: So my wife and my lawyer managed to send some samples, so the blood, the hair, the fingernails, to three different toxicology labs. And they're still working on it. It takes a long time, as I understand. And of course, a result is not guaranteed either. Last time, we didn't find out what the toxin actually was. I mean, people have explained to me, after the last time, that it was a sophisticated way that it was administered because obviously, I didn't notice that I was being poisoned. I don't know how they did it.

KELLY: Had you eaten something unusual or come into contact with substances you wouldn't normally have?

KARA-MURZA: You know, my work in Russia involves constantly meeting with different people in different places, in public places, in cafes and restaurants. I'm...

KELLY: Drinking a lot of cups of tea with a lot of different people.

KARA-MURZA: Of course, I'm going around the country a lot. I mean, I'm actually not in Moscow most of the time. I'm mostly around Russia for my work at the Open Russia movement. I'm also recently completed a documentary film about Boris Nemtsov, the opposition leader who was killed two years ago, who was a longtime colleague and a close friend of mine. So I'm - I was going around the country also holding public screenings for the film, so I was all over the place.

KELLY: Who do you believe would want you dead?

KARA-MURZA: Well, of course, I wouldn't know the precise people involved in this, but naturally, it's people connected with the current regime. And I think it's people who either have been or are currently connected with the Russian special services. But I haven't received any warnings, any threats, nothing. So - and of course, I don't know the who, I don't know the when, I don't know the how. The only thing I'm pretty sure about is the why.

KELLY: I want to note two things. One, your attorney in Russia has called for a criminal investigation on suspicion of attempted murder. I also want to note that Moscow has consistently denied any government ties to high-profile poisoning cases, denied any malevolent motives in your specific case. Given everything you've just told us, will you go back to Russia?

KARA-MURZA: Well, I can definitely tell you that I'm going back to doing what I was doing before.

KELLY: Will you set foot on a plane to Russia again, though?

KARA-MURZA: Well, I think, you know, now my main task is to get back to walking normally again. And I'm not even allowed to travel anywhere and...

KELLY: Your doctors haven't signed off on travel plans.

KARA-MURZA: Oh, of course. Last time I returned to Russia, I was really not in shape physically, but I felt it important to, you know, to return as soon as I could to resume the work. You know, I think it's far too early to talk about precise plans. But I can tell you 100 percent that I'm going back to doing what I've been doing my whole adult life and that is being involved in the democratic opposition in Russia because I think this regime that we have in power in our country now is driving our country into a dead end.

Russia's a European country. We live in the 21st century. And for the last 17 years, so almost a generation, we've had the same small clique of crooks and autocrats, unelected crooks and autocrats, holding onto power and, you know, destroying independent media, destroying elections as a meaningful institution; also in recent years, as you know, going even outside Russia's borders and turning to external aggression. I think, you know, those of us who believe in a democratic future for Russia and a democratic European future for Russia based on rule of law, we cannot just sit idly by and watch this happen. We need to do something about it. And I will do whatever I can to make sure that our country has a government that our people deserve.

KELLY: To push back on what you're saying, we should note President Putin enjoys overwhelming popular support within Russia.

KARA-MURZA: You know what? If you control every single nationwide television channel, if your opponents are in prison, in exile or dead, if you control the electoral process from beginning to end, from controlling who actually is on the ballot and to controlling the vote count, I don't think it's very hard to have a quote, unquote, "high approval rating."

KELLY: If that's true, why would the government feel the need to poison someone like you?

KARA-MURZA: Well, that's the thing, I mean, I think a much better way of assessing and looking at the real state of affairs in Russia and the real popularity or lack thereof of the current regime is to look at their own actions. And if you look at their own actions, you see what they've been doing for the last 17 years. And let me ask you, if I may, if you really have 86 or 90 or 95 or however many percent they say they have in approval ratings, why would you need to rig elections? And as you rightly ask, why would you need to jail, push out of the country or otherwise silence members of the opposition?

KELLY: That's Russian opposition leader Vladimir Kara-Murza. He is the vice chair of Open Russia, and he was speaking to us still recovering after emerging from a coma last month in Moscow. Mr. Kara-Murza, thank you for coming in.

KARA-MURZA: Thank you very much. It's good to be with you.

KELLY: Best wishes for your recovery.

KARA-MURZA: I will try.

KELLY: We did reach out to the Russian embassy in Washington for a response. We have yet to hear back.