美国国家公共电台 NPR 美国改口称约旦河西岸以色列定居点不违反国际法（在线收听）

These days, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo rarely visits the State Department's briefing room to speak with reporters. He went today to announce one more pro-Israel move by the Trump administration.

We'll discuss that in a second. First let's look at what Pompeo did not talk about — the impeachment inquiry. A series of State Department employees are testifying before Congress, sometimes about Pompeo.

NPR's Michele Kelemen joins us now from the State Department. Hi, Michele.

MICHELE KELEMEN, BYLINE: Hi, Ari.

SHAPIRO: How did Pompeo handle reporters' questions today about the State Department witnesses who have testified about the Trump administration's handling of Ukraine?

KELEMEN: Well, he was given a couple of chances to defend some of those people like Marie Yovanovitch, the former ambassador to Ukraine who came under attack from President Trump via Twitter during her testimony on Friday. The secretary would not comment on that. He was also asked if he still has confidence in Bill Taylor, the man he sent to replace Yovanovitch earlier this year. He wouldn't say. He would only say that his team is driving toward the, quote, "appropriate" Ukraine policy.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

MIKE POMPEO: Yeah. State Department's doing a fantastic job. I think we've delivered in a way that the Obama administration has not delivered on Ukraine. I think the Ukrainian people — and if you listen to their leadership, I think they think the same.

KELEMEN: So you see, Ari, you know, under the Obama administration, the U.S. didn't give Javelin anti-tank missiles to Ukraine. The Trump administration did. Pompeo likes to talk about that. What he doesn't like to talk about, though, is why the president held up aid to Ukraine at a crucial time this year, when there was a new president in the country who desperately wanted a U.S. show of support.

SHAPIRO: Let's turn to the secretary's announcement of a change in U.S.-Middle East policy. This is a pro-Israel step that is drawing anger from Palestinians.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)

POMPEO: The establishment of Israeli civilian settlements in the West Bank is not, per se, inconsistent with international law.

SHAPIRO: Michele, why is that a significant statement? What does it mean?

KELEMEN: Well, you know, you have to go back into history, which is what the secretary did. It was the Carter administration that concluded that building settlements in the occupied territories was inconsistent with international law. So for decades, this was the U.S. position.

Of course, Israel has continued to build settlements that now house hundreds of thousands of Israelis in the West Bank. Previous administrations criticized that, calling it an obstacle to peace. But the Trump administration now says it's up to Israeli courts to rule on settlements, that the U.S. does not see it as inherently illegal.

SHAPIRO: And what's the reaction in the Middle East?

KELEMEN: Well, it was a big victory for Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who is struggling to stay in power following two inconclusive elections. His office put out a statement saying this rights a historical wrong. Palestinians who hoped to one day have a state of their own in the West Bank called this an attempt to replace international law with the law of the jungle. That was a quote from Saeb Erekat, who's a longtime Palestinian negotiator.

I mean, Pompeo's argument is that Israelis and Palestinians need to negotiate a settlement and says the previous U.S. policy didn't help. He also wouldn't say, though, exactly when the Trump administration is planning to unveil its vision for Middle East peace. That's the one Trump's son-in-law has been working on.

SHAPIRO: And finally, just briefly, I understand Pompeo also talked about Iran, where the government is trying to crack down on protests after an increase in fuel prices. What did he say there?

KELEMEN: Yeah. He said he's watching closely. He's calling on Iran to restore Internet service to the people who have been cut off. He said he wants the — Iran to act like a normal nation. He made clear he stands with protesters, and he also blasted the Iranian government for what he calls nuclear extortion. Since the U.S. left the nuclear deal, the Iranians have been ramping up their program again.

SHAPIRO: That's NPR's Michele Kelemen at the State Department. Thanks, Michele.

KELEMEN: Thank you.

最近，美国国务卿迈克·蓬佩奥很少在国务院简报室会见记者。今天，他在简报室宣布了特朗普政府决定的一项大力支持以色列的措施。

我们将在稍后详细介绍这项决定。首先，我们来关注蓬佩奥没有提及的问题——弹劾调查。多名国务院工作人员相继在国会作证，有时证词会涉及蓬佩奥。

NPR新闻的米歇尔·克莱门将从国务院和我们连线。你好，米歇尔。

米歇尔·克莱门连线：你好，阿里。

夏皮罗：今天，记者问到了国务院证人就特朗普政府对乌克兰事务的处理方式作证一事，那蓬佩奥是如何回答的？

克莱门：他得到了一些为玛丽·约万诺维奇等人辩护的机会，约万诺维奇是前美国驻乌克兰大使，她在周五作证时，特朗普总统发推对她进行了指责。国务卿蓬佩奥未就此发表评论。他还被问到是否仍对比尔·泰勒有信心，他在今年早些时候委任泰勒接替约万诺维奇。他也没有回答这个问题。他只说他的团队正在推行“适当的”乌克兰政策。

（录音档案）

迈克·蓬佩奥：好。国务院的工作非常出色。我认为从某种程度上来讲，我们为乌克兰提供了奥巴马政府所没有提供的援助。我想乌克兰人民——如果你听听他们领导层的表态，我想他们的想法也是这样。

克莱门：阿里，你看，奥巴马政府执政期间，美国并未向乌克兰提供“标枪”反坦克导弹系统。但特朗普政府提供了。蓬佩奥喜欢谈论这个。不过他不喜欢提及总统在今年的关键时刻推迟对乌克兰援助的原因，当时乌克兰新当选总统急于得到美国的支持。

夏皮罗：现在我们来谈谈国务卿宣布的美国对中东政策的转变。这是一项支持以色列的举措，因此引发了巴勒斯坦方面的愤怒。

（录音档案）

蓬佩奥：以色列在约旦河西岸修建定居点本身并不违反国际法。

夏皮罗：米歇尔，为什么这项声明具重要意义？这意味着什么？

克莱门：那我们必须像国务卿那样回顾一下历史。卡特政府得出的结论是，在占领领土修建定居点违反国际法。因此，美国数十年来的立场一直如此。

当然，以色列仍在继续修建定居点，目前有数十万名以色列人居住在约旦河西岸。前几届政府曾指责这种做法，称这是实现和平的阻碍。但现在特朗普政府表示，应由以色列法庭对定居点做出裁决，美国并不认为其本身是违法行为。

夏皮罗：中东地区有何反应？

克莱门：这对以色列总理本杰明·内塔尼亚胡来说是重大胜利，在两次无果大选后，他目前正在努力保住总理之位。他的办公室发表声明表示，这纠正了历史错误。巴勒斯坦希望有朝一日能在约旦河西岸建立自已的国家，巴方称这是试图以“丛林法则”取代国际法。这是巴勒斯坦谈判代表赛义卜·埃雷卡特所说。

蓬佩奥的观点是，以色列和巴勒斯坦需要协商解决方案，他称美国此前的政策没有任何帮助。不过，他并没有说明特朗普政府何时会公布其中东和平方案。这份方案由特朗普的一名女婿制订。

夏皮罗：最后一个小问题，我知道蓬佩奥还谈到了伊朗问题，该国政府正在努力镇压因油价上涨而引发的抗议。他有何表态？

克莱门：对。他说他正在密切关注伊朗局势。他呼吁伊朗恢复被切断的互联网服务。他说他希望伊朗能表现得像个正常国家。他明确表示他支持抗议者，他还指责伊朗政府进行“核勒索”。美国退出伊朗核协议之后，伊朗就一直在扩大核项目。

夏皮罗：以上是NPR新闻的米歇尔·克莱门从美国国务院带来的报道。谢谢你，米歇尔。

克莱门：谢谢。