PBS高端访谈:极为拥挤的珠穆朗玛峰（在线收听）

JUDY WOODRUFF: Mount Everest remains the ultimate achievement for many mountain climbers. And the number of people who try it just keeps growing, far above the levels of even two decades ago. May is the month when many try to reach the summit. But, as Amna Nawaz tells us, this year has had a number of fatalities once again, and those deaths are prompting questions about whether there are too many climbers, and how Nepal is handling it.

AMNA NAWAZ: Judy, I'm sure many of our viewers have seen this picture over the weekend tweeted out by a climber. The summit of Mount Everest essentially had a traffic jam this past week. Once upon a time, this kind of crowd was unimaginable. But now there are even more troubles ascending and descending from the top. At least 11 people have died this climbing season, most recently, an American attorney from Boulder, Colorado, who died on Monday. For more on what it takes to make it to the top of Everest and the crowding conditions and the deaths, we turn to Alan Arnette, a mountaineer and climbing coach who summited Everest in 2011. He is the oldest American to summit K2, the second-highest mountain in the world. And he joins us via Skype from Fort Collins, Colorado. Alan, welcome to the NewsHour. We hear this word crowded a lot in reference to what we're seeing there. Why is it so crowded on Everest right now?

ALAN ARNETTE, Mountaineer: Well, it's the highest mountain in the world. And for many people, it's the pinnacle, it's the dream. They grew up watching National Geographic or documentaries on PBS about climbing Mount Everest or read books. And it's a childhood dream. And as the world improves in its economic status, the middle classes have more money, we're starting to see more and more people try to go there.

AMNA NAWAZ: So more and more people, Alan, of course, want to get to Everest. The Nepalese government has also issued more permits than ever before in history. Is it just the fact that it's more crowded that we're seeing more deaths?

ALAN ARNETTE: That's very true that Nepal issued a record 381 permits to foreigners. And they also require that each foreigner hire a Sherpa guide. So that meant there were 800 people attempting the mountain this year. Now, that in and of itself is not a big problem, but the problem was that the jet stream, the high winds aloft, normally move off of the mountain in mid-May. Last year, they moved off and allowed for 11 consecutive summit days. And a record number of people summited with the normal, sadly to say, the normal five deaths. This year, that summit window, there were only five of them. So you had roughly 800 people trying to squeeze through a three-day window, and on May 23, it was the worst-case scenario. It all came together in a very short period of time.

AMNA NAWAZ: So more people trying to summit in fewer possible days. Look, we have heard a lot of people who are coming off the mountain talking about what it's like up there, what the conditions are like on the ground. You have been there. They have talked about chaos. They have talked about stepping over bodies. They have talked about it being like a zoo. What is it like when you're up there in the moment?

ALAN ARNETTE: So, I think this year, again, what people were experiencing was the worst-case. But there is another phenomenon going on. There is a new generation of guide services which are offering Everest at $30,000, instead of the normal $40,000, $50,000, $60,000. That low price is attracting people that never have had the experiences that they need to have before attempting a mountain like Everest. So, honestly, they don't know what they don't know. So, when they're up there, they don't realize that they're suffering from altitude sickness. The support staff that they're with doesn't, hasn't been trained in the medical aspect. So they don't know when to turn people around. So that's what's getting most people in trouble. And, also, that's influencing the chaos that we're seeing, and this idea that people are jostling to be able to stand on top of the summit. Experienced mountaineers would never do that. And that tells me that this year we had a lot of novices up there that honestly needed more support and more experience before they arrived.

AMNA NAWAZ: Alan, help us understand. There's less than a minute left, by I'm hoping you can provide some color for us here. When you're there and you have spent tens of thousands of dollars to do this once-in-a-lifetime summit, what is that pressure like? Because we hear about people who are willing to pass by other climbers who are having difficulty. What are some of the unspoken rules when you're trying to summit Everest?

ALAN ARNETTE: Well, this is a tough one, because when you climb a mountain like Everest, it really comes down to self-preservation. You're in what's called the Death Zone, where your body is degrading. You're running out of oxygen. When you get into lines where you're burning up the limited amount of oxygen that you have, you're honestly just hanging on to the edge. And if all of a sudden what should have been a 12-hour summit day turns into a 20, and you run out of oxygen, then you die. And if you get low on oxygen, you may suffer altitude sickness. So, the ability to help other people becomes very, very limited to those strongest people on the mountain, and those are typically the most experienced Sherpas up there. It's not the normal person that's climbing. It's someone like myself.

AMNA NAWAZ: Alan Arnette, who has himself made it to the top of Mount Everest, thank you so much for being with us today.

ALAN ARNETTE: Thank you.

朱迪·伍德拉夫：登顶珠穆朗玛峰对于很多登山者来说是最难实现的成就。尝试攀登珠穆朗玛峰的人数越来越多，远远超过了20年前的水平。5月，很多人都会去尝试登顶。不过，根据我台记者阿姆纳·纳瓦兹的报道，今年又出现了多例意外死亡事故。这些事故让人们不禁发问：攀登者是否数量太多，以及尼泊尔是如何应对这种情况的。

阿姆纳·纳瓦兹：朱迪，我相信很多观众朋友都看到其中一位登山者周末在推特上发的图片了。珠穆朗玛峰峰顶上周出现严重的交通瘫痪。曾几何时，这种交通瘫痪在这里是不可想象的。但现如今，无论是上山还是下山，难度都更大了。今年的登山季，有至少11人死亡。而最近，一位来自科罗拉多州博尔得的美国律师也于周一死亡。为了了解更多有关登顶珠穆朗玛峰的代价、拥堵情况、死亡情况，我们找到了艾伦。他是一名登山者，也是一位教练。2011年，他曾登顶珠穆朗玛峰。他是登顶乔戈里峰的人中，年龄最大的。乔戈里峰是世界第二大高峰。今天，他通过Skype从科罗拉多州的柯林斯堡与我们连线。艾伦，欢迎来到《新闻一小时》。我们听闻这里现在拥堵严重，跟我们目睹的景象一样。那么，珠穆朗玛峰现在为何如此拥堵呢？

艾伦，登山者：因为这里是世界最高的山。对很多人而言，这里是最高峰，是梦想。很多人在成长期间就曾看过PBS的《国家地理》或者纪录片，了解有关珠穆朗玛峰的知识或者书籍。那是他们儿时就有的梦想。而且，由于世界范围内经济水平的提升，中产阶级腰包更鼓了，这也是登山者越来越多的原因。

阿姆纳·纳瓦兹：艾伦你是说，在这种情况下，越来越多的人想要攀登珠穆朗玛峰。尼泊尔政府也发布了许多许可令，比历史上任何时候都要多。真的是因为这里更加拥堵而导致更多死亡案例吗？

艾伦：很正确，尼泊尔向外国人士发布了381道许可令。尼泊尔政府还要求每位外国人士雇佣一名夏尔巴导游。也就是说：有800人曾于今年尝试登顶。这本身不是大问题，但真正的问题在于急流和疾风5月中旬会开始离开珠穆朗玛峰。去年，登顶日允许开放11天。而不幸的是，虽然登顶的人数创下了纪录，但却有5人死亡。今年，登顶日有5天。所以，在短短3天的开放期里，有近800人争先抢后地登山。5月23日，是登山情况最恶劣的一天。这都是在短期内发生的。

阿姆纳·纳瓦兹：那么，有更多的人要在越来越短的开放期内尝试登顶。我们听说有很多人从山上下来的时候会讨论登山的感受，以及山上的天气情况。您也去过那里，大家都会提到的是：那里一片混乱。他们要踩过别人的身体上去，就像动物园一样。您登上去的时候是什么景象呢？

艾伦：我认为，今年的登山环境最为恶劣。但还有另一种现象。新一代的珠穆朗玛峰导游服务只收费3万美元，而往常都是4万、5万、6万。这样的低价吸引从未攀登过珠穆朗玛峰的人们去尝试攀登这样的高峰。所以，说实话，这些人都还没有了解清楚状况。那么，登山的时候，他们就不会意识到自己其实已经出现了高原反应。而陪同他们的支持人员并没有受过医学方面的培训。所以他们不知道如何对待出现不适症状的人。所以，这种现状让人们遇到了麻烦。此外，也导致了当下的混乱局面——人们争先抢后地想要登顶。有经验的登山者从不会做这样的事。这让我想到：今年，有很多新手去往那里登山，说实话，他们在动身前需要更多的支持和经验。

阿姆纳·纳瓦兹：艾伦，你的解释让我明白了。现在所剩时间不到1分钟了，我希望你还能提供一些信息。您曾为登顶投入过大量资金，那么峰顶的气压是怎样的呢？因为我们听说有一些人在经过遇到困难的人的时候，会选择视而不见。攀登珠穆朗玛峰的时候，有哪些心照不宣的规则呢？

艾伦：这个很难讲，因为攀登珠穆朗玛峰这样的高峰是非常考验自我保护能力的。攀峰的过程就在死亡区，身体状况会每况愈下，会不断缺氧。一旦加入登峰的行列，就开始不断耗氧，就在不断接近承受不住的边缘。如果突然之间，12小时的登顶日变成20小时，你可能会因氧气耗尽而死去。如果缺氧，会出现高原反应。所以，即便是登峰能力最强的人，即便是最有经验的夏尔巴人，在帮助别人这件事上也会心有余而力不足。攀峰不是常规的爬山而已，我这样的登山者在清楚不过。

阿姆纳·纳瓦兹：艾伦，感谢您作为曾经登顶的人来参加我们今天的节目。

艾伦：谢谢您。