PBS高端访谈:特朗普如何大力拓展海上油井（在线收听）

Judy Woodruff: The Trump administration said today it would allow energy companies to drill for oil in nearly all the waters surrounding the continental United States.

As William Brangham reports, it's a big shift to roll back even more of the Obama administration's environmental policies and to increase U.S. energy production.

William Brangham: The announcement today made by Interior Secretary Ryan Zinke will now open up roughly 100 million acres of offshore waters to oil exploration. These areas had been protected at the very tail end of the Obama administration, and they covered regions in the Pacific, the Atlantic and the Gulf of Mexico. The move was hailed by the energy industry. And it also comes on the heels of another push to roll back some of the safety regulations put in place after the Deepwater Horizon spill seven years ago. Amy Harder covers energy and the environment for Axios. And you're here to help us wade through some of this. So, for people who don't follow this that closely, how big of a deal is this?

Amy Harder: Well, it's a really beg deal for the amount of the offshore waters that they're proposing to possibly allow the oil and gas industry to lease. It's about 90 percent of the offshore waters that the federal government owns. And that's more than any administration since Ronald Reagan. So that's a very big deal. That said, it's also important to remember and to understand the bureaucratic process that goes into something like this. This is what I would call the opening wager of a very long process.

William Brangham: Meaning rigs aren't going to pop up tomorrow.

Amy Harder: No. In fact, talking to the industry about this, it could be at least a decade before something like this, before drilling is actually put in place. The process works as a funnel. The first phase is the widest, and then over a public comment period, it gets narrower. At least, that's how the law states it. So, this is the opening wager. It will take a year or so to go through public comments. And I anticipate that at least some of these leases will be taken off the table.

William Brangham: So, we know some states love oil drilling, some states hate oil drilling. Does a state have any say in what happens on the waters off their particular shores?

Amy Harder: Well, that's what the public comment period is for.And so, of course, states like Texas and Louisiana are big fans of it. They get a cut of the revenue, which is helpful. But other states, such as Florida, which is run by Governor Rick Scott, a Republican, who just four days ago dined with the president in Florida, he tweeted out that he's opposed to this and wants to talk to the interior secretary.

William Brangham: So, it's not a bipartisan — I mean, there is bipartisan disagreement on this?

Amy Harder: Right. In fact, this is one of the few energy areas that actually is splitting the Republican Party, which we don't see on most energy issues. You also saw Senator Marco Rubio, another Republican from Florida, also opposed to drilling off the coast of Florida. So I certainly think, of the leases that the administration would be open to taking off the table, again, in this funnel-like process, Florida is a top candidate. You also have the Democratic governors across — up and down the West Coast, California, Oregon, Washington, who are also very opposed to this. So I think it will be very difficult. Even if technically and legally the administration can move forward, they still need the buy-in and the cooperation of these state governors.

William Brangham: This, as we mentioned earlier, is part of a lot of chipping away at different environmental regulations of the Obama administration, the Deepwater Horizon safety regs. They just opened up the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. Is this just part of the process that the Trump administration is going to do? I think this is one of the things that people have pointed out. The Obama administration did a lot of these things in a non-legislative way, and now the Trump administration can undo them in the same fashion.

Amy Harder: Right. I mean, that's the plus and minus of doing work by executive action. I mean, we saw this across the board on the energy and climate change agenda. I spend most of my time talking to agencies and less of my time talking to Congress. We saw it also play out in the Paris climate deal. Obama went around Congress, because Congress wouldn't have approved a global treaty on climate change, given the makeup of Congress. So he went around and signed — agreed to it by government — by executive action. And so that opened up the door for Trump to reverse course relatively easily. So, I think this is the latest one. Offshore drilling is a little bit more substantive. And, you know, I think people relate to it because it's right in your backyard. It's the classic NIMBYism, not in my backyard. And that's why you're seeing…

William Brangham: They love the energy. Don't want it to be done right by them.

Amy Harder: Right. And I think you're seeing that with Governor Scott coming out in opposition and Rubio. Those are the two that are jumping out at me as the Republicans that I think will be leading this charge.

William Brangham: All right, Amy Harder of Axios, thank you so much.

Amy Harder: Thanks for having me.

茱蒂·伍德：特朗普政府今日发布消息称，政府将允许能源公司在美国大陆周边各海域钻探石油。据威廉·博格汉姆称，此举是美国能源增产的一项重大举措，但也进一步颠覆了此前奥巴马政府的多项环保政令。

威廉·博格汉姆：内务部长莱恩·辛克今日宣布，美国政府将开放约1亿亩的近海水域，以供石油勘采。这些区域包括太平洋、大西洋和墨西哥湾海域，而奥巴马政府临卸任前已下令对其进行（环境）保护。再次开放这些海域得到了能源产业的普遍拥护。七年前因“深水地平线”漏油事件，本已实施的一些作业安全规定，也遭废弃，近海油田勘采随之而来。艾米·哈德主要负责阿克西奥斯能源及气候变化领域事务。希望今天你可以在某种程度上为我们解读一下当前形势。那么，对于那些不太了解此事件的人来说，到底影响多大？

艾米·哈德：嗯，对于近海水域而言，此举的确意义重大，有人提议油气产业可对近海水域进行租赁。目前，联邦政府近海水域持有量达90%。 创下自罗纳德·里根政府后的持有量之最。所以此事关系重大。并且，这对于记住和了解政府处理类似事件的惯用手法，也尤为重要。此过程相当漫长，这也正是我所说的此事还0有待观察。

威廉·博格汉姆：也就是说那些钻探设备不会明天就突然冒了出来。

艾米·哈德：不会。事实上，要和业界讨论这些问题，恐怕至少要等上十年，钻探设备等等才能就位。这个过程就像是通风井。首先还很泛泛，之后大家展开各种讨论，再然后进入小范围讨论阶段。至少，法律上是这样规定的。所以，这是场公开的赌注。公开评论阶段尚会持续一年左右。我预计政府将至少取消租约中的部分内容。

威廉·博格汉姆：那么，我们知道有些州对石油勘采乐此不疲，而有些州则对它恨之入骨。它们对自家门口近海水域上要发生的这些事儿，有什么说法吗？

艾米·哈德：嗯，这要等到公众评论期了。那么，当然，像德克萨斯和路易斯安那这样的州都是此项政策的巨粉。降低他们的财政税收，对他们都有好处。但像佛罗里达这样的州，州长瑞克·斯考特是共和党人，四天前他曾在佛罗里达州与总统共进晚餐，并发微博说他反对此举，并希望与内务部长对话。

威廉·博格汉姆：那么，这项举措并没有获得两党支持——我的意思是，这点上两党尚有分歧？

艾米·哈德：对。事实上，共和党内部存在分歧的只涉及少数几个能源问题，多数都没有异议。你也看到了，另一位来自佛罗里达州的共和党参议员马尔科·卢比奥，也反对在佛罗里达州海岸钻井。那我当然认为，如果政府愿意在某些地区做出让步，那么，在这个类似通风井的过程中，佛罗里达州则是最佳人选。

西海岸、加利福尼亚、俄勒冈、华盛顿等地的民主党领导人中，有人也坚决反对此项提议。所以我认为这项提议要想付诸实施还是相当困难的。即使政府在技术和法律层面上能够向前推进，他们也得征得这些州长的参与与合作。

威廉·博格汉姆：这一点，正如我们前面所说的，这对奥巴马政府此前的环保政策，以及“深水地平线”事件后的相关安全规定，在很大程度上是一种削弱。特朗普政府刚刚开放了北极国家野生动物保护区。这是否也是特朗普政府要做成此事的一步棋呢？我认为人们已经指出了这点。奥巴马政府此前的政策，很多都是以非立法的形式实现的，那么现在特朗普政府也可以以同样的方式将它们一一撤销。

艾米·哈德：对。我是说，这正是以行政手段成事的优点和缺点。我是说，我们之前仔细了解了能源和气候变化议程的方方面面。我花了很长时间与相关机构交涉，也向国会进行了解。

我们看到，在巴黎气候协定的签署中，奥巴马政府也使用了这种方法。考虑到国会的组成结构，根本不可能通过一项气候变化全球条约，于是奥巴马绕过了国会。他四处奔走，通过行政手段，以政府的名义签署了巴黎气候协定。

这就为特朗普打开一扇改写历史的大门，一切易如反掌。所以，我认为这是最近的一个。近海钻探则更具实质意义。而且，你知道，此事关乎大家，与他们息息相关。这是典型的邻避主义，因为事不关己。这就是你如今看到的形势…

威廉·博格汉姆：他们钟爱能源。他们不想亲手坐实此事。

艾米·哈德：对。我想通过州长斯科特和鲁维奥站出来反对此事，你也看明白了。我认为，这两共和党人会挑头站出来发对我。

威廉·博格汉姆：好的，来自阿克西奥斯的艾米·哈德，非常感谢。

艾米：谢谢你邀请我。