PBS高端访谈:透过圣母院大火审视其它人造危机（在线收听）

JUDY WOODRUFF: Protesters took to the streets of Paris and other French cities this weekend, asking why billionaires and the government have rushed to the aid of the Notre Dame Cathedral after its terrible fire, while millions of ordinary French citizens are being squeezed economically. Income inequality is just one issue that may gain momentum in the aftermath of the fire. Stephane Gerson is the English-language editor of France in the World: A New Global History. In his Humble Opinion, the fire that ravaged Notre Dame should force us all to take a look at our other human-made crises.

STEPHANE GERSON, Institute of French Studies, NYU: This past Monday, my son sent me a text that read simply: Notre Dame. I didn't know what he meant. So he wrote again: It's on fire. Terrible. I turned on the TV and saw the cathedral burn, the spire collapse, the roof crash down. I watched Parisians and others cry along the Seine. For a while, I thought of moments in French history that involved the cathedral, 1287, the masons of Notre Dame traveling across Europe to show their excellence in stonecutting, or August 1944, Charles de Gaulle coming under sniper fire inside Notre Dame. This is what historians do in moments like these. We go to the past. But that night, I also thought about our present and our future. We are horrified because Notre Dame is the most poignant reminder in this brittle age of ours, this age of accelerating climate change and mass displacement, that nothing is eternal. Hasn't Notre Dame always been with us? Hasn't it always stood strong, stone rising into the skies, tower standing guard, its spire inviting us to aim for something higher? Monuments such as these enter our collective heritage.

The mythic cathedral is eternal and indestructible. We are eternal and indestructible. But, no, look, Notre Dame is burning. The spire is collapsing. The roof is crashing down, unless it is our roof, our collective roof that is crashing down. A century ago exactly, in 1919, the writer Paul Valery provided reflected on the massive destruction science had wrought during World War I. We civilizations, he wrote now know that we are mortal. Valery was telling us that our civilization can precipitate its own undoing. His warning is not mere history. We watched a cathedral burn. And though we know that cathedrals can rebuilt, we feel something deeper. Could it be the premonition that some disasters, some fires are so incandescent that nothing remains afterwards, not even civilization? There is a theory that disasters can shake the status quo. By suspending the usual order, by displaying its failures, they can open up new solidarities and maybe, in this case, collective responses to environmental destruction and forced migration. The emotions we experienced before a shared ordeal, shock and sorrow, empathy, immersion in the moment, can bring us together around a vision of the common good. I had been skeptical about this theory in the past, but the emotion we felt watching the cathedral burn, the emotion we felt imagining a world burning, might this emotion then allow us to avert further destruction, to work together towards a different future, not only for the cathedral, but also for human civilization? Notre Dame, it's on fire. Terrible. As I reread my son's texts, I have to hope that this time will be different.

JUDY WOODRUFF: French historian Stephane Gerson.

朱迪·伍德拉夫：本周末，巴黎等多个法国城市的抗议者们纷纷走上街头，质问各亿万富翁和政府可以在巴黎圣母院发生大火后第一时间赶去救援，却无视无数法国的平民老百姓还过着捉襟见肘的日子。收入不平等只是巴黎圣母院大火后愈演愈烈的一个问题。史蒂芬·格尔森是《从法国看世界：不同的全球史》的英语编辑。在今晚的《我之拙见》中，巴黎圣母院遭遇的这场大火应该促使我们审视人类造成的其他危机。

史蒂芬·格尔森，纽约大学法国研究学院：在刚刚过去的周一里，我儿子给我发来一条信息，写着：巴黎圣母院。我那时还不知道他是什么意思。于是他又发了一条信息：巴黎圣母院着火了，火势很大。我随机打开电视，看到了火灾的景象，看到塔尖坍塌，看到屋顶坠落。我看到巴黎民众和其他民众沿着塞纳河哭嚎的场景。有那么一晃的时间，我想到了法国历史上的一些时刻，也与巴黎圣母院有关，即1287年。那时候，建造巴黎圣母院的工匠们走遍欧洲各地，彰显自己在石器方面的雕琢经验。我还想到了1944年8月，戴高乐在巴黎圣母院内遭遇狙击手的猛烈攻击。历史学家在这样的时刻会做这样的事——我们会回顾过去。但那一晚，我还想到了现在和未来。我们感到十分震惊，因为巴黎圣母院的存在以让人难受的方式提醒着我们这个时代的脆弱，因为这是一个气候变暖不断加剧的时代，一个许多人无家可归的时代，一个不提永远的时代。巴黎圣母院不是一直与我们同在吗？巴黎圣母院不是一直坚挺地屹立吗？它高耸入云霄，好似我们的守卫。它的塔尖也在鼓舞我们志存高远。这样的建筑物是人类共同的遗产。

这个神话版的教堂是永垂不朽、不可毁灭的。我们也是永垂不朽、不可毁灭的。但事实并非如此，你看啊，巴黎圣母院处在火海之中，塔尖也在崩塌。屋顶也在毁坏，如果上升到全人类的意义上，那就是属于全人类的屋顶在坍塌。一个世纪前，也就是1919年，作家保尔·瓦雷里就曾反思过科学在一战期间造成的大规模毁坏。他写道，我们人类文明现在终于知道自己并非不朽。瓦雷里告诉我们：人类文明会因不当行为而坠入万劫不复。他的警示不只是历史而已，曾经的他就预见了巴黎圣母院的大火。虽然我们都知道巴黎圣母院正在重建之中，但我们能感受到更深切的东西。这是不是在警示我们：会不会有某种灾难或者大火会让一切消失，甚至是人类文明？有一个理论说：灾难可以改变现状。在打破了常态后，在经历了失败后，他们可以更加稳固。以巴黎圣母院大火为例，大家对环境破坏和被迫迁徙有了共同的响应。我们经历了共同的灾难、震惊、悲痛、感同身受，我们沉浸于当下，这样的经历让我们为共同的美好而一起努力。我以前对这个理论是感到怀疑的，但我们在看到巴黎圣母院大火时、在看到一个小世界灼烧时确实有这样的共情。那么，这样的共情是否能让我们避免今后出现破坏事件，是否能让我们同心协力，为有所不同的未来而努力，不只是为了巴黎圣母院，也为人类文明而努力？巴黎圣母院着火了，火势很大。在我阅读儿子的信息时，我也希望这一次真的会有所不同。

朱迪·伍德拉夫：让我们感谢法国历史学家史蒂芬·格尔森。