PBS高端访谈:科学与政坛的激烈对决（在线收听）

JUDY WOODRUFF: The daily briefings at the White House do continue, but, tonight, there is new information on a key firing, allegedly pitting science against politics. Our Yamiche Alcindor is here with the latest. Yamiche, we did report earlier that a man who was working for the government in the vaccine division of the National Institutes of Health, working on a coronavirus response, says he's been retaliated against. What more are we learning about this?

YAMICHE ALCINDOR: That's right, Judy. Dr. Rick Bright says that he was abruptly dismissed from the agency within the Department of Health and Human Services. He said he was pushing for scientific-based studies. He said he wanted treatments that were going be vetted thoroughly, and not just treatments that President Trump liked, including that anti-malaria drug that has not been fully tested, but that the president has encouraged Americans to take. He says that he was moved from that position. And now his attorneys say that they're getting ready to file a whistle-blower complaint. They also say that he was retaliated against when he was moved out of his position. So, we have to watch this closely, but this doctor is making a lot of noise and saying that he's been treated unfairly by the Trump administration.

JUDY WOODRUFF: And, Yamiche, as always, I know the reporters are looking for information from the president on how the administration is managing this crisis. What more are you learning tonight?

YAMICHE ALCINDOR: Well, two big things happened at the briefing just -- that is still going on today. The first is that the director of the CDC came out to push back on a headline in The Washington Post that said that the second wave of the coronavirus could be more devastating. He said that he was quoted accurately. But it was a scene where you could see the president was essentially marching him out to attack The Washington Post's reporting. And the only issue that they had was, instead of the word devastating, it should have been they used the word difficult. So they're still saying that that Washington Post article is accurate. The second thing is that the president has now come out firmly against the governor of Georgia. He said that he doesn't agree with the Georgia governor opening up businesses, including salons and barbershops. He said he specifically spoke to the governor and said that he strongly disagreed with that. But he said, at the same time, the governor has to do what he thinks is right.

JUDY WOODRUFF: That is so interesting, Yamiche, given the Republican governor of Georgia, Brian Kemp. And just quickly, Yamiche, when the president -- when Dr. Redfield, who is the head of the CDC, made this clarification today, where did -- where was it finally left?

YAMICHE ALCINDOR: Well -- I'm sorry. You said, where was he...

JUDY WOODRUFF: How did he finally explain what happened? You said he changed it from devastating to difficult. Is that pretty much where it's left?

YAMICHE ALCINDOR: Yes, that's where it's left. He literally took issue with one word. And that was in the headline. He said that all of the reporting was accurate. So, even though he was pushing back on The Washington Post, this was really a copy editing issue, essentially, devastating vs. difficult. The point is that the second wave of this virus could still really kill a lot of people and infect a lot of people. And the director of the CDC stood by that statement. The president says he doesn't think it's going to happen, but he hasn't shown any evidence of that. What we have heard is that the health officials say that the second wave of the coronavirus could be just as deadly, if not more deadly, even though Dr. Fauci said that the U.S. might possibly be more prepared the second time around. So the president, though, is pushing back and saying, maybe this won't even happen, which, as I said, Judy, there's no evidence that there won't be a second wave.

JUDY WOODRUFF: So much attention focused on all of this. Yamiche Alcindor, thank you very much.

YAMICHE ALCINDOR: Thanks, Judy.

朱迪·伍德拉夫：白宫的每日吹风会依然在继续。不过，今晚，我们来了解一下科学与政坛的激烈对决。请听我台记者阿尔辛多发回的报道。阿尔辛多，之前我们确实有报道过，有一名男子曾是公务人员，在国立卫生研究院的疫苗分部工作。他着力于新冠病毒的响应。这名男子说他被报复了。关于此事，有什么最新的进展吗？

阿尔辛多：是的朱迪。里克表示自己被突然解雇。他说自己当时正在推进一些科学研究。他说他希望能研究出能通过彻底审查的治疗方式，而不只是特朗普喜欢的治疗方式，包括没有充分测试但特朗普却鼓励美国人使用的抗疟疾药物。他说自己被撤职了。现在，他的几位律师表示已经做好准备提起告发的诉讼了。律师们还说立刻被撤职时被报复了。所以我们得密切关注此事，不过这位医生四处为自己发声，说自己受到了特朗普政府的不公正对待。

朱迪·伍德拉夫：阿尔辛多，我知道记者们也在搜寻信息，了解特朗普政府对此次危机的管控。你今晚有获取到什么消息吗？

阿尔辛多：吹风会上有2件大事发生——今天依然在发酵。第一件事就是疾病防治中心（CDC）的主任出面否认了《华盛顿邮报》的一则头条，这则头条消息说新冠的第二波会更为可怕。他说他的话被一字不落的引用了。但当时情况挺明显的，特朗普直接让他出去炮轰《华盛顿邮报》的报道。他们唯一的问题是：这次没有用可怕来形容，而是用了艰难这个词。所以他们依然在说《华盛顿邮报》的文章很准确。第二件大事是：特朗普现在直接站出来炮轰乔治亚州州长。特朗普说自己不同意该州州长的言论，不同意各企业重新开工的做法，包括沙龙和理发店。他说他特意跟这位州长聊了聊，还说他强烈反对的想法。不过他也说这位州长有权利做自己认为对的事情。

朱迪·伍德拉夫：关于乔治亚州州长的这段，很有趣。问个简单的问题：今天做这番澄清的时候，CDC的负责人是谁呢？

阿尔辛多：抱歉，没太听清，你说他怎么来着……

朱迪·伍德拉夫：他最后是怎么解释的呢？你说他改了措辞。就这样，对不？

阿尔辛多：对的，就这样。他就用一个词描述了一下，然后就上了头条。他说所有报道都是准确的。所以虽然他抨击了《华盛顿邮报》，但这是文字的事情，本质上来说就是可怕vs.艰难。问题是：第二波病毒依然可能夺走很多人的生命，也会导致很多人感染。CDC的负责人支持这样的论点。特朗普说他觉得这是不可能发生的，但他没有拿出任何证据。我们从卫生领域工作人员那里听到的消息是：第二波疫情可能跟第一波一样致命，甚至更为致命。不过，福西说美国可能在第二波的时候就做好了充足的准备。特朗普对此表示反驳，他说第二波是不可能来临的。但朱迪，目前还没有证据证明不会有第二波。

朱迪·伍德拉夫：今天就此事聊了很多。非常感谢。

阿尔辛多：谢谢你，朱迪。