美国国家公共电台 NPR 任期还剩两个月 特朗普开除了国防部长埃斯珀（在线收听）

The news came in a presidential tweet today. Quote, "Mark Esper has been terminated. I would like to thank him for his service." And that's how Donald Trump let the world know that he had fired the secretary of defense. Trump added that Christopher Miller, who currently serves as director of the National Counterterrorism Center, will become acting secretary, effective immediately. Joining us with more is NPR Pentagon correspondent Tom Bowman.

总统今天在推特上发布了一则消息。他写道：“马克·埃斯珀的职务已被终止。我要向他的付出表示感谢。”唐纳德·特朗普用这种方式让世界知道他解雇了美国国防部长。特朗普还在推特上表示，美国国家反恐中心主任克里斯托弗·米勒将担任代理国防部长，决定立即生效。NPR新闻驻五角大楼记者汤姆·鲍曼将和我们连线。

Hi, Tom.

你好，汤姆。

TOM BOWMAN, BYLINE: Hey, Ari.

汤姆·鲍曼连线：你好，阿里。

SHAPIRO: How much of a surprise is this? It was certainly sudden.

夏皮罗：这有多令人惊讶？这真是太突然了。

BOWMAN: Oh, it's not a surprise at all. Trump wanted to fire him back in June for opposing the president's insistence to use active-duty troops to deal with street protests in D.C. and elsewhere. Now, active-duty troops did deploy to the Washington area, but the Pentagon had them remain outside the city itself. The president wanted to send a strong message. Esper was quite forceful in saying that was not a good idea. Police and National Guard troops were the best option. Here's Esper talking about it back on June 3, the last time he was in the Pentagon briefing room.

鲍曼：这并不令人吃惊。特朗普在6月时就想解雇他，因为他反对总统坚持用现役部队来处理华盛顿和其他地方的街头抗议活动的做法。现在，现役部队确实部署在华盛顿地区，但五角大楼让部队驻守在城外。总统想传达强烈的信息。而埃斯珀很坚决地称那不是好主意。警察和国民警卫队是最好的选择。以下是埃斯珀在6月3日所说，那是他最后一次出现在五角大楼简报室的日子。

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MARK ESPER: The option to use active-duty forces in a law enforcement role should only be used as a matter of last resort and only in the most urgent and dire of situations. We are not in one of those situations now. I do not support invoking the Insurrection Act.

马克·埃斯珀：用现役部队来执行执法任务这一选项，只应作为最后手段，只有在最紧急和最严峻的情况下才可使用。但现在我们并不处于这些情况中。因此我不支持启用暴动法案。

BOWMAN: So, Ari, that really sealed his fate. Esper had a resignation letter ready to go. And I'm told he updated it in recent days.

鲍曼：阿里，这真的决定了他的命运。当时埃斯珀已经准备好辞职信。我听说他最近修改了辞职信的内容。

SHAPIRO: That was five months ago. Why didn't Trump fire him back then?

夏皮罗：那是五个月前的事情。当时特朗普为何没有解雇他？

BOWMAN: Well, Trump was talked out of it by his advisers and also lawmakers on Capitol Hill saying it didn't look good so close to the election. And, of course, Esper's predecessor, Jim Mattis, resigned over disagreements with Trump.

鲍曼：特朗普的顾问和国会议员都劝说特朗普不要解雇他，因为大选即将举行，这样做不太好。当然，埃斯珀的前任吉姆·马蒂斯也因与特朗普意见不合而辞职。

Now, even though there were reports in recent days that Esper would be fired, there were mixed views on whether that actually would happen. Some thought it was likely to happen. Others, especially in the Hill, were worried it would send a message of a government in turmoil. And Esper himself was telling lawmakers just a few days ago that he was not resigning and was expecting to stay for the remaining 2 1/2 months of this administration.

尽管最近几天有报道称埃斯珀将被解雇，但对于这是否真会发生，各方看法不一。有些人认为这很可能发生。其他人，尤其是国会山成员担心，这会传递出政府陷入混乱的信号。就在几天前，埃斯珀本人还告诉议员，他不会辞职，他希望在本届政府剩余的2个半月任期内继续留任。

SHAPIRO: Well, what's been the reaction so far today?

夏皮罗：那今天到目前为止，人们的反应如何？

BOWMAN: Well, only from Democrats, actually — I haven't seen any reaction from Republicans. And so far, the only reaction from Democrats, again, opposing this move — Congressman Adam Smith, chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, said it was a childish and reckless move and was destabilizing for the Pentagon ahead of a political transition. The congressman said, in the national security community, it's well-known that periods of presidential transition leave our country exposed to what he called unique threats from adversaries.

鲍曼：实际上只有民主党人做出了反应，目前我还未看到共和党人有任何反应。到目前为止，民主党唯一的反应还是，反对这一举动，众议院军事委员会主席、国会议员亚当·史密斯表示，这是幼稚和鲁莽的举动，破坏了五角大楼在政治过渡之前的稳定。这位国会议员表示，国家安全部门众所周知的情况是，总统过渡时期会使我们国家面临他所称的来自对手的独特威胁。

And Democratic Senator Tim Kaine, a member of the Senate Armed Services Committee and Foreign Relations Committee, echoed that — said firing a secretary of defense in the last weeks of a lame-duck presidency serves no purpose and only demonstrates an instability harmful to American national defense — so, again, only Democrats talking about this.

参议院军事委员会和外交关系委员会成员、民主党参议员蒂姆·凯恩同意这一说法，他表示，在“跛脚鸭”总统任期的最后几周解雇国防部长毫无意义，只会显现对美国国防有害的不稳定局势，我要再说一次，目前只有民主党人在谈论这件事。

SHAPIRO: Well, Esper only held this job for a little over 16 months. What will he be remembered for? What was his track record?

夏皮罗：埃斯珀的任职时间只有16个多月。他会因为什么而被人们记住？他的履历如何？

BOWMAN: Well, there were mixed reviews. He was called Yesper for acquiescing or remaining silent over Trump's more controversial moves, such as troop cuts in Afghanistan and Germany. Also, some Pentagon officials, including Esper, were open to removing the names of Confederate generals from U.S. military bases. Trump strongly opposed it. And Esper, again, was silent.

鲍曼：评价褒贬不一。他被称为“耶斯珀”，因为他对特朗普饱受争议的举措持默许态度或保持沉默，比如在阿富汗和德国削减军队。此外，包括埃斯珀在内的一些五角大楼官员也对美军基地不再使用南方邦联将领名字持开放态度。但特朗普对此表示强烈反对。所以埃斯珀又沉默了。

To some people in Capitol Hill I spoke with — they say he was a strong Army secretary, made steep cuts to some programs he saw as no longer necessary but was a disappointment as defense secretary. Others really were more charitable, saying he did as best he could under trying circumstances, meaning working for Trump. Defense analyst Michael O'Hanlon called him solid and successful for focusing on the new defense strategy that centered on China and Russia, while another analyst, Brad Bowman, praised Esper for pushing modern weaponry like hypersonic missiles and directed energy.

我在国会山采访的一些人认为，他是强势的陆军部队，大幅削减了他认为不再需要的项目，但作为国防部长，他的表现令人失望。其他人的看法则更加宽容，他们认为他在艰难的环境下尽了最大努力，而艰难的环境指为特朗普工作。国防分析人士迈克尔·奥汉伦称埃斯珀专注于以中国和俄罗斯为中心的新国防战略，他在这方面坚定而且取得了成功，而另一位分析人士布拉德·鲍曼则称赞埃斯珀推动了高超音速导弹和导向能等现代武器装备。

SHAPIRO: And just briefly, why would any president fire somebody as prominent as a defense secretary after losing an election with just a couple months left as a lame-duck president?

夏皮罗：请简短回答一下，为什么会有总统在选举失败后，在只剩下几个月的跛脚鸭总统任期内解雇像国防部长这样显赫的人？

BOWMAN: Because we're talking about Trump. And anybody that disagrees with him — he takes that personally and forcefully. And as he said on numerous occasions, I like to fire people.

鲍曼：因为我们谈论的是特朗普。任何与他持不同意见的人，他都会以个人和强硬的态度对待。正如他在很多场合所说，“我喜欢解雇人”。

SHAPIRO: NPR Pentagon correspondent Tom Bowman, thank you.

夏皮罗：以上是NPR新闻驻五角大楼记者汤姆·鲍曼带来的报道，谢谢你。

BOWMAN: You're welcome, Ari.

鲍曼：不客气，阿里。