美国国家公共电台 NPR 特朗普宣布解雇美国网络安全局局长（在线收听）

President Trump says he has fired Christopher Krebs. He is the head of the agency in the Department of Homeland Security that oversees election security. Krebs said last week he thought that he would be out of a job soon as he worked to combat disinformation about voter fraud. NPR's Miles Parks covers election security and joins us with more.

特朗普总统表示，他已经解雇了克里斯托弗·克雷布斯。他是国土安全部监督选举安全机构的负责人。克雷布斯上周表示，他认为自己将很快失业，因为他致力于打击有关选举舞弊的虚假信息。NPR新闻的迈尔斯·帕克斯负责报道选举安全方面的新闻，现在他将和我们连线。

Hi, Miles.

你好，迈尔斯。

MILES PARKS, BYLINE: Hey, Ari.

迈尔斯·帕克斯连线：你好，阿里。

SHAPIRO: President Trump announced this news in a couple of tweets this evening. What did they say?

夏皮罗：特朗普总统今晚发了几条推特，其中一条宣布了这一消息。他发布的推文都写了什么？

PARKS: Basically, what President Trump says is — it's kind of a list. The tweets start with a list of his conspiracies, frankly, about voter fraud. He says there were dead people voting. Poll watchers were not allowed into polling locations. There were glitches in the voting machines. None of these claims have been backed up with any evidence over the last couple of weeks. But because of all these things, President Trump says he's firing Chris Krebs, who released a statement along with a number of other government agencies last week that said, basically, this was the most secure election in the nation's history. And he says because there's this kind of contradiction here, Chris Krebs has been terminated.

帕克斯：基本上，特朗普总统说……这相当于一份清单。坦白来说，他发的推特首先列出了其关于选举舞弊的阴谋论。他称有死人投票。有投票监察员不被允许进入投票站的情况发生。还有的投票机出现故障。过去几周，这些说法都没有得到任何证据的支持。但由于所有这些情况，特朗普总统称他要解雇克里斯·克雷布斯，后者上周与其他多家政府机构共同发表声明称，这次选举可以说是美国历史上最安全的选举。总统说，因为存在这种矛盾，所以克里斯·克雷布斯被解雇了。

SHAPIRO: So it's not just that there's no evidence for President Trump's claims. In fact, this appointee came out and said this was a free and fair election without fraud, and that's the reason he's getting kicked out. Well, tell us more about what Krebs' role has been in this election.

夏皮罗：不只是特朗普总统的说法没有证据。事实上，被任命者克雷布斯说这是一次没有舞弊的自由公正的选举，这就是他被开除的原因。请详细介绍一下克雷布斯在这次选举中的作用。

PARKS: Well, Krebs has really overseen, over the last couple of years, this transformation inside the federal government to start thinking about election security. You know, it's hard to imagine, but four years ago, when the Russians attacked election infrastructure in this country, there was no clear situation where people didn't know who to talk to. It took months, in some cases, more than a year, for the correct state officials to get information about the Russian hacking that went on in their states. And so Krebs has basically overseen, over the last couple of years, this effort to change that. They've started a number of working groups. The communication — that's the biggest change between 2020 and 2016 is just the amount of communication happening from the federal government down to the state level, down to the local level. Local government officials I've talked to, state government officials I've talked to have basically been raving for the last few weeks about just how different this election felt. And Krebs has been kind of at the center of all of those efforts.

帕克斯：过去几年，克雷布斯确实监督了联邦政府内部的转变，开始考虑选举安全问题。这很难想象，但是四年前，在俄罗斯攻击美国的选举基础设施时，人们不清楚状况，不知道要和谁交流。正确的国家官员花了数个月时间，在某些情况下，甚至是一年多的时间，才获得了有关俄罗斯在其州所进行黑客攻击的信息。因此，在过去几年里，克雷布斯监督了改变这种状况的努力。他们成立了许多工作组。沟通，2016年至2020年间最大的变化，就是联邦政府到州政府、再到地方层面的沟通量。过去几周，接受我采访的地方政府官员和州政府官员，基本上都在滔滔不绝地谈论这次选举的不同感受。克雷布斯一直处于所有这些努力的中心。

SHAPIRO: So tell us more about what this statement said, that Krebs' agency, the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency — what was in that statement that seems to have provoked Trump?

夏皮罗：请详细说明一下这份声明的内容，克雷布斯负责的机构是网络安全和基础设施安全局，声明中哪些内容似乎激怒了特朗普？

PARKS: Right, so it says specifically, quote, "the November 3 election was the most secure in American history." It goes through a couple different details. And then at the end of one of the paragraphs, it says, there's no evidence that any voting system deleted or lost votes, changed votes or was any way compromised. And so that directly kind of cuts against a lot of the Trump campaign's claims in court and claims in the courts of public opinion about how this election went.

帕克斯：好，声明明确表示，“11月3日进行的选举是美国历史上最安全的一次选举。”声明提到了几个不同的细节。在其中一段的末尾，声明指出，没有证据表明任何投票系统删除或损失、改变了投票，或者以任何方式遭到了损害。因此，这直接与特朗普竞选团队在法庭上提出的许多主张以及其就公众对这次选举的看法所提出的主张相悖。

And I should also say that Krebs' agency, the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency, has been running a website called Rumor Control that's basically meant to fight disinformation about elections. It was kind of set up to fight foreign interference or that was how it was messaged. But over the last couple of weeks, most of the rumors that it had been debunking have been rumors that have kind of come either through President Trump's Twitter feed or through the Trump campaign. And so there has been this constant kind of back-and-forth between Trump's — between this agency and President Trump.

我还应该指出，克雷布斯的机构——网络安全和基础设施安全局，一直在运行名为“谣言控制”的网站，旨在打击有关选举的虚假信息。建立这个网站的目的有点像是为了对抗外国干涉，或者这就是其信息传递方式。但在过去几周，大部分被揭穿的谣言都是通过特朗普总统的推特或特朗普竞选活动传出的谣言。因此，这个机构和特朗普总统之间一直存在这种交锋。

SHAPIRO: And briefly, what does this mean for the future of the agency?

夏皮罗：简言之，这对该机构的未来意味着什么？

PARKS: It's unclear. You know, I talked to an official at DHS last week about what it could mean if Krebs was fired, and he said it would rock CISA was the direct quote. So, you know, this isn't great for election security, according to officials.

帕克斯：目前尚不清楚。我上周采访了一名国土安全部官员，我问他如果克雷布斯被解雇了，那意味着什么，他说这会动摇网络安全和基础设施安全局。所以，该官员表示，这对选举安全不利。

SHAPIRO: CISA, the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency — that is Miles Parks, who covers election security for NPR.

夏皮罗：CISA指的是网络安全和基础设施安全机构，以上是NPR新闻负责报道选举安全相关新闻的迈尔斯·帕克斯带来的报道。

Thanks, Miles.

谢谢，迈尔斯。

PARKS: Thank you, Ari.

帕克斯：谢谢你，阿里。

SHAPIRO: And we should add that Chris Krebs responded to his firing. On his personal Twitter account, he tweeted, honored to serve. We did it right. Defend today. Secure tomorrow.

夏皮罗：我们要补充一下，克里斯·克雷布斯对他被解雇一事做出了回应。他在个人推特账号发文称，我为（为美国）服务感到荣幸。我们做了正确的事。今天防御。明天安全。