美国国家公共电台 NPR 特朗普称如果选举团投票给拜登 他将离开白宫（在线收听）

President Trump signaled this week he would accept the results of the election once the Electoral College declares Joe Biden the winner after weeks of mounting failed legal challenges and making unfounded allegations of voter fraud. But after that moment of lucidity on Thursday, the president returned to calling the elections, quote, a "massive fraud" and a "big scam." He tweeted more of the same yesterday.

特朗普总统本周暗示，一旦选举人团宣布乔·拜登获胜，他将接受选举结果，此前数周，其失败的法律挑战不断增加，而且他还提出了毫无根据的选举舞弊指控。但在周四那一刻的清醒之后，总统再次称这届选举是“大规模欺诈”和“大骗局”。他昨天在推特上发表了更多同样的言论。

NPR senior editor and correspondent Ron Elving joins us. Ron, good morning.

NPR新闻资深编辑和记者罗恩·艾尔文将和我们连线。罗恩，早上好。

RON ELVING, BYLINE: Good to be with you, Scott.

罗恩·艾尔文连线：很高兴和你连线，斯科特。

SIMON: Is this as close as we might come to hearing a concession, if not the word?

西蒙：如果这不是让步的话，那我们是不是就快听到让步这种说法了？

ELVING: You know, it's all over, perhaps, but for the tongue-lashing the president's lawyers keep getting in the courts. Yesterday, it was a federal appeals court in Pennsylvania saying that, quote, "calling an election unfair does not make it so." This in the same week the president called in to a Republican event — it was in Gettysburg, as it happens — and he then ranted about how he just needed to get, quote, "some judge" to listen to him.

艾尔文：也许一切都结束了，但是总统的律师一直在法庭上进行痛斥。昨天，宾夕法尼亚州一家联邦上诉法院表示，“称选举不公平并不能使不公平成为现实。”而就在这周，总统召集了一场共和党活动，该活动恰巧在葛底斯堡（位于宾夕法尼亚州）举行，总统在活动上大声疾呼，称他只需要让“某个法官”听他的话。

Meanwhile, in Wisconsin, the recount the Trump campaign sought and paid for is actually enlarging Biden's lead, at least in the largest county. So as states continue to certify results, we're moving toward a vote on the Electoral College in two weeks and two days. That will set up the situation the president said would cause him to leave the building.

与此同时，特朗普竞选团队在威斯康辛州寻求重新计票并为此付费，但重新计票正在扩大拜登的领先优势，至少在最大的县是如此。因此，随着各州继续确认选举结果，我们将在两周零两天内进行选举人团投票。这将造成总统所说的导致其离开白宫的局面。

So we can expect the president and his most devoted course of supporters will continue to deny it not necessarily because they think they can stop the train, but because there are other reasons to resist the inevitable.

因此，我们可以预见总统和他最忠实的支持者将继续否认这一点，这不一定是因为他们认为他们可以进行阻止，而是因为还有其他理由来抵制这一不可避免的事情。

SIMON: And those reasons are?

西蒙：这些原因是什么？

ELVING: Well, the president has always been interested in controlling the narrative, and he's not eager to be cast with those other one-term presidents, like the first George Bush, Jimmy Carter, Herbert Hoover. He's not willing to be one of the losers. So even in defense — even in defeat, he may want to remain in denial. And he can do that. He just needs friendly media venues where he's a victim of injustice.

艾尔文：总统一直以来都很想控制报道，他也不想和其他仅任一届的总统一样，比如乔治·布什，吉米·卡特和赫伯特·胡佛。他不愿意成为失败者之一。因此，即使失败，他也可能希望保持否认。他能做到这一点。他只需要友好的媒体场所，让他成为不公正的受害者。

SIMON: Earlier this week, we saw the implications of an expanded conservative majority that President Trump put on the Supreme Court when they delivered the decision upholding challenges to pandemic restrictions on the size of crowds gathered for worship at religious services. Those restrictions had already been lifted. Does this decision look like what amounts to President Trump's legacy?

西蒙：特朗普总统扩大了最高法院保守派占多数的优势，我们在本周早些时候看到了这带来的影响，这些保守派裁定，支持对限制宗教仪式集会规模的抗疫措施的挑战。这些限制措施已经解除。这个决定相当于特朗普总统的遗产吗？

ELVING: You're right to say this decision was of limited effect in an immediate sense in New York or elsewhere, but it was clearly a signal that the court has a new majority, five justices willing to vote to the right of Chief Justice John Roberts, five justices eager to be seen as champions of religious liberty and willing to defend that principle even in the face of public health advisories. Three of these five are Trump appointees. So, yes, this is indeed a singular achievement for the president and a salient feature of Donald Trump's legacy.

艾尔文：没错，从直接意义上说，这一决定在纽约或其他地方是有限的，但这显然是一种信号，即最高法院获得了新的多数，五名法官愿意投票支持首席大法官约翰·罗伯茨的权利，五位法官渴望被视为宗教自由的捍卫者，即使面对公共卫生咨询，他们也愿意捍卫这一原则。这5人中有3人是特朗普任命的大法官。因此，没错，这对总统来说确实是非凡的成就，也是唐纳德·特朗普遗产的显著特征。

SIMON: President pardoned Michael Flynn this week, which may not have been so surprising. But what else do you believe the president can do between now and January 20, when Joe Biden and Kamala Harris are sworn into office?

西蒙：总统本周赦免了迈克尔·弗林，这也许并不令人惊讶。但是，从现在到1月20日，即乔·拜登和卡马拉·哈里斯宣誓就职之前，你认为总统还能做什么？

ELVING: There is a great deal the president can do. The question is how much of it can be undone and what permanent effect will be left after January 20. We're also seeing a flurry of orders from Cabinet members governing their various jurisdictions. Some of those are draconian and may be swiftly reversed, and others may remain on the books for some time.

艾尔文：总统可以做很多事。问题是，在1月20日之后，这其中有多少是可以撤销的，会产生何种永久性影响。此外，内阁成员对各自管辖范围发布了一系列命令。其中有些相当严厉，可能会迅速被逆转，而另一些则可能会保留一段时间。

As for pardons, that is a presidential power with very few restraints. And the pardons he grants for federal offenses are permanent and not reviewable.

至于赦免，这是总统权力，几乎没有限制。总统对联邦罪行的赦免是永久性的，不可复审。

SIMON: And we must ask this weekend, what about prospects for military action? It was reported that the president was quite recently talked out of bombing an Iranian nuclear facility. And, of course, he has recently ordered the withdrawal of more U.S. troops from Afghanistan.

西蒙：这个周末我们必须要问的是，军事行动的前景如何？据报道，总统最近被劝说不要轰炸伊朗的核设施。当然，他最近还下令从阿富汗撤军。

ELVING: There's real concern about what Trump could do as commander in chief, anxiety about him deciding to make a mark on his way out the door. So when we see a key figure assassinated in Iran, we wonder whether that shows the hand of the U.S. in any way.

艾尔文：人们对特朗普作为总司令能做的事情感到非常担心，人们担心他决定在离职前留下印记。因此，当我们看到一个关键人物在伊朗遇刺时，我们想知道美国是否参与其中。

But right now, it seems the president is preoccupied with projects closer to home, things that have always interested him more than foreign affairs, including his challenges to the election and pardons for former associates in criminal difficulty and measures he may take to insulate himself or his family against legal or financial consequences down the road.

但现在，总统似乎正忙于更接近国内的项目，这些事情总是比外交事务更让他感兴趣，包括他对选举结果的挑战，赦免遭遇刑事困境的前伙伴，而且，他可能采取措施，使自己或家人免受法律或经济后果的影响。

SIMON: Ron Elving, thanks so much.

西蒙：罗恩·艾尔文，非常谢谢你。

ELVING: Thank you, Scott.

艾尔文：谢谢，斯科特。