美国国家公共电台 NPR 互相驱逐外交人员 美俄关系扑朔迷离（在线收听）

Let's talk now about the U.S. and Russia, a relationship where the points of friction are many and growing.

现在我们来谈谈美国和俄罗斯，两国关系中的摩擦点很多，而且还在不断增加。

There's Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny, who is in prison, who just ended a hunger strike

俄罗斯反对派领袖阿列克谢·纳瓦尔尼现在被关在狱中，他刚刚结束绝食抗议，

and whose political movement has just today been ordered to shut down operations.

而他的政治运动今天刚刚被命令关闭运作。

There's also Russian hacking and cyberattacks against U.S. targets and zero evidence that those attacks are slowing.

俄罗斯还对美国目标进行了黑客攻击和网络攻击，而且没有证据表明这些攻击正在放缓。

And then there's the fact that Russia was massing troops on the border with Ukraine with the goal of —

除此之外，俄罗斯在与其与乌克兰的边境集结军队，目的是……

well, that's a question to put to our next guest, Russia expert Angela Stent.

这个问题要有请我们的来宾、俄罗斯专家安吉拉·斯坦特来回答。

She is director of Georgetown University's Center for Eurasian, Russian and East European Studies. Professor Stent, welcome.

她是乔治城大学欧亚、俄罗斯和东欧研究中心主任。斯坦特教授，欢迎你。

Glad to be back on your show.

很高兴再次做客你的节目。

Start with this news today about Navalny.

我们先来谈谈今天与纳瓦尔瓦有关的新闻。

These are orders his headquarters has to suspend activities, his national network to suspend activities. What's the significance?

即俄罗斯命令他的总部暂停活动，让他的全国网络暂停活动。这有何意义？

It's very significant because now that this organization has been deemed an extremist organization,

这意义重大，因为现在这个组织被认为是极端组织，

it puts it on a par with, you know, al-Qaida and terrorist organizations.

被与“基地”组织和恐怖组织等同起来。

And so if you mention it, if you talk about it on social media, you can then be accused of being part of an extremist organization.

因此，如果你提到该组织，或是在社交媒体上谈论它，你可能会被指控为极端主义组织的成员。

And you can be jailed. So this will really make it very difficult for Navalny's organization to continue to operate, even from abroad.

你可能会被判入狱。因此，这将使纳瓦尔尼的组织很难继续运作，即使在国外也如此。

What about Navalny himself? This hunger strike reportedly brought him close to death.

纳瓦尔尼本人呢？据报道，这次绝食使他濒临死亡。

People will recall he nearly died last year when he was poisoned with what appears to have been a Soviet-era chemical weapon.

人们应该记得，他去年就险些丧命，当时他被一种似乎是苏联时期的化学武器毒害。

How much do we know about the conditions in which he's being held?

我们对他被关押的情况了解多少？

We know that they finally let some civilian, i.e. nonprison, doctors examine him last week.

我们知道他们上周终于让平民医生（即非监狱医生）给他做了检查。

And so that enabled him then to go off the hunger strike because that's why he was on the hunger strike.

这使他停止了绝食，因为这就是他绝食的原因。

But he has a lot of physical ailments, some of which are obviously a result also of the poisoning,

但他的身体有很多问题，有些问题显然是中毒造成的后果，

some of which may have been acquired when he was in the prison.

有些可能是在监狱里时染上的疾病。

But he is apparently getting some better medical treatment.

但他显然得到了更好的治疗。

And he's still asking for his own doctors to see him, but I'm not sure that that's going to happen.

他仍然要求自己的医生给他看病，但我不确定这会不会发生。

All right. Let me turn you to another development. We mentioned Russia had been building up military forces on the border with Ukraine.

好。接下来请你谈一下另一个进展。我们刚才提到俄罗斯一直在其与乌克兰的边境上增兵。

These countries are engaged in a conflict that has been running for seven years and counting now.

这两个国家之间的冲突已持续七年之久，而且仍未结束。

Russia says the buildup is over. They're pulling back. Do you buy it?

俄罗斯表示，增兵已经结束。他们正在撤军。你相信吗？

I buy some of it.

我相信其中一部分。

I think one of the reasons they massed all of those troops was even though the Biden administration has said that Russia is a major threat to the U.S.

我认为他们集结这些军队的原因之一是，虽然拜登政府称俄罗斯是美国的主要威胁，

but not as important as China in terms of a threat, I think they were concerned that the U.S. was saying, Russia is really not a top priority for us.

但在威胁方面没有中国重要，我认为他们担心的是，美国说对抗俄罗斯并不是我们的首要任务。

They were also not happy about what President Zelensky has been doing inside Ukraine.

俄罗斯也对泽伦斯基总统在乌克兰的所作所为感到不满。

He's been attacking pro-Russian interests, oligarchs and things like that.

他一直在攻击亲俄罗斯的利益集团、寡头等。

So I think we should be quite clear that if they want to repeat this exercise, they can easily do it.

我认为我们应该非常明确的是，如果他们想再次进行演习，他们可以轻易做到。

But they've certainly, you know, lowered the temperature by withdrawing the troops.

但是他们确实通过撤军减缓了紧张氛围。

One other development to throw into the mix. The U.S. ambassador to Moscow, John Sullivan, was politely invited to leave — I think is an accurate way to put it.

还有一个新进展。美国驻莫斯科大使约翰·沙利文被礼貌地建议离开，我认为这是准确的说法。

He wasn't quite expelled, but it was made clear it might be in his interest to head home to the U.S. for a little while.

他并没有完全被驱逐，但有人明确表示，返回美国一段时间可能对他有利。

Is that also about lowering the temperature?

这也是为了降低紧张氛围吗？

This was in response to the remark that President Biden made when he was asked whether he believed that Putin was a killer, and he said yes.

这是对拜登总统在被问及是否认为普京是凶手时所作回答的回应，拜登回答是凶手。

And immediately, the Kremlin ordered the Russian ambassador in the United States, Ambassador Antonov, to go back to Russia for consultations.

克里姆林宫立即下令俄罗斯驻美大使安东诺夫大使返回俄罗斯进行磋商。

And so I think this was sort of in response to that.

因此，我认为这是对这件事的回应。

And as the temperature was getting higher, saying that Ambassador Sullivan should go home

随着紧张局势不断升温，他说苏利文大使应该返回美国，

because now we have a situation where, apparently, President Biden and President Putin will meet for a summit this summer.

因为现在的情况是，显然拜登总统和普京总统将在今年夏天举行峰会。

And not to have ambassadors in the two capitals beginning to work on, you know, what the agenda might be — of course, there are other channels of communication,

不让在对方首都的大使开始着手商讨议程，虽然还有其他沟通渠道，

but it makes one question what the Russians' ultimate goal in this was.

但这让人不禁要问，俄罗斯在这方面的最终目标是什么。

Angela Stent, professor at Georgetown University and author of the book "Putin's World." Thank you.

安吉拉·斯坦特是乔治城大学的教授，也是《普京的世界》一书的作者。谢谢你。