PBS高端访谈:美国出台"免除大学学费计划"（在线收听）

Now to the debate over providing free tuition for community college. Seventeen states already do so, and existing programs cover tuition for many students.

现在我们围绕“是否为社区大学提供免费学费”这件事进行讨论。目前已经有17个州实施了这一措施，现有的项目已经为许多学生免去了学费，

But President Biden wants to make that happen nationwide. His plan starts with $109 billion to cover full tuition for community college.

但拜登总统希望能在全国范围内实现这一点。1090亿美元是他这一计划的开端，用于支付社区大学的全额学费。

States would be asked to match a dollar for every three allocated in federal money.

各州将被要求按照联邦拨款的每3美元中的1美元进行拨款。

His plan also includes an $85 billion investment in Pell Grants for students in need at both two- and four-year colleges.

他的计划还包括850亿美元的佩尔助学金投资，发给两年制和四年制大学里那些有需要的学生。

And there's another $62 billion for resources to help students complete their degree, money for transportation and tutoring, for example.

另外还有620亿美元用于一些帮助学生完成学位的资源补助，例如交通和辅导费用。

We are going to get different takes over the next two nights for our series on Rethinking College.

接下来两晚时间我们将为我们的“反思大学”系列节目做不同的介绍。

To begin, I'm joined by Margaret Spellings, the former U.S. secretary of education under President George W. Bush, and the former head of the University of North Carolina system.

首先，我邀请到了乔治·W·布什总统时期的美国教育部长、北卡罗莱纳大学系统的前校长玛格丽特·斯佩林斯。

She's now president and CEO of Texas 2036. It's a policy group to make Texas successful after its bicentennial.

她现在是德州2036公司的总裁兼首席执行官，该公司是一个致力于让德克萨斯在两百周年纪念日后成功发展的政策小组。

Margaret Spellings, welcome back to the "NewsHour." Thank you for joining us. I'm looking at something that President Biden said when he was making this proposal.

玛格丽特·斯佩林斯，欢迎来到“新闻一小时”，感谢您的加入。我在想拜登总统在提出这项提议时说的一些话。

He said: "It's not enough to restore where we were before the pandemic. We need to build a stronger economy that does not leave anyone behind." What about that rationale for this?

他说：“我们仅仅恢复到大流行前的水平是不够的，我们需要建立一个不让任何人掉队的更强大的经济。”这两者背后的联系是什么？

Well, it makes all the sense in the world. And I commend him really for investing in American higher education.

这一点在全世界都讲得通。我非常赞赏他对美国高等教育的投资。

We know that most of the jobs of today and certainly the future require higher levels of education.

我们知道，目前及以后的大多数工作都需要更高的教育水平。

And, right now, we're following -- falling woefully short of having all our people with the skills needed to really access the economy. So, at the top line, I really commend that goal.

而现在，我们严重缺乏能够真正参与经济发展所需的人才。所以，我真的非常推崇这一目标。

Well, let me just go beyond that, then, because what the president has pointed out and the people who advocate for this point out is,

咱们说说另外一点，总统所说的以及支持这一观点的人指出，

the people who have most benefited from community college are people at the lower income scale, people who haven't had the opportunity.

从社区大学获益最多的是那些收入较低的人，那些没有机会的人。

In other words, it's a way to target those individuals who had the least opportunity in the past, as an argument for putting this kind of money into it.

换句话说，这一政策针对的是那些在过去机会少之又少的人，他们是这笔资金投入的理由。

Well, and we know that so many of our -- the majority of our community college students really are taking remedial education, levels of basic literacy and math that should have been learned in high school.

我们知道，大多数上社区大学的学生都在接受矫正教育，学习一些本该在高中学习的数学知识和基本的读写能力。

And so, sadly, our completion rates towards an associate's degree or to something, really a meaningful credential, are not very encouraging at community colleges.

所以，社区大学获得副学士学位或其他有意义的证书的完成率并不高，这很可悲。

And when students are well-matched, they really do better in comprehensive universities, like our minority-serving institutions, HBCUs. So, to me, I'm a fan of the Pell Grant.

如果我们能对这些学生进行很好的匹配，那么他们在综合性大学的表现就会更好，比如为少数族裔服务的大学HBCUs(传统黑人大学)。所以，我的话，我是佩尔奖学金的粉丝。

I think one of the greatest assets of American higher education is for the ability for a student to take that purchases power to a place that suits them.

我认为美国高等教育最大的资产之一就是让学生有能力把购买力带到适合他们的地方。

And, certainly, that can be a community college, but isn't necessarily.

当然，那可以是一所社区大学，但也不一定。

But the question is, why not go ahead and give these individuals who -- I looked at a number -- it's something like

但问题是，为什么不让这些人……我看到一个数字……

94 percent of total family income, on average, has gone toward education for the most disadvantaged students. Why not direct the money to who need it the most?

用于最弱势学生的教育资金平均下来大约占家庭总收入的94%。为什么不把这些钱给到最需要的人呢？

Well, because I think, often, they're going to be better off with a comprehensive university, like an HBCU.

嗯，因为我认为，通常情况下如果他们上了一所综合大学，比如HBCU，他们的前途会更好。

They're going to be on track to complete and they will have a trajectory into a livelihood and, frankly, often doesn't exist when students are educated in community colleges.

这样他们就能走上正轨，找到谋生的途径，但是坦白说，在社区大学接受教育是不会有什么前途的。

Too many of our students in community colleges are taking what we call basic education, which is really kind of literacy and math, not that they don't need that,

社区大学有太多的学生接受的只是我们所谓的“基础教育”，学习什么是读书写字，什么是数学，但这些不是他们真正需要的。

but, really, it's we need to empower consumers with information and purchasing power to go where they see fit, including community colleges.

但我们确实需要给消费者提供信息和购买力，让他们去到自己认为合适的地方，包括社区大学。

Well, the administration has shared with us a number of studies that show this kind of outside financial aid does help these students toward completing their two-year degree.

嗯，管理部门和我们分享了一些研究，这些研究表明这种外部经济援助确实有助于学生完成他们的两年制学位。

So, this would be a way of at least -- for those students who can't go, for whatever reason, to a historically Black college, which you have mentioned, or to another four-year institution, at least this gets them off to a solid beginning.

所以，这至少是一种方式，至少对那些你之前提到的因为一些原因不能上传统黑人大学或者上一所四年制大学的的学生来说是一种方式，这至少能够给他们一个坚实的起点。

And that's why 17 states, as you rightly say, have invested in that.

这就是为什么17个州，就像你所说，在这方面进行了投资。

But there's also states who have invested in additional supports for four-year institutions, for technical schools, for other types of institutions.

不过也有一些州对四年制教育机构、技术学校和其他类型的教育机构进行了额外的支持。

So, I think, in terms of bipartisan support, I think there will be a lot of support for the Pell Grant. That will obviously inure to the benefit of community colleges and to families.

所以，我认为在两党支持方面会有很多人支持佩尔助学金。显然它对社区大学、对一些家庭有益。

But let's be agnostic about the kinds of places that students might select, adult learners, those who are going straight from high school, to really chart their own path.

但是，咱们暂且不去想学生可能选择的地方，还有那些高中毕业后就直接进入社会的成人学习者如何真正规划他们自己的道路。

What we really need is information as well for students to really understand, what are they getting in those community colleges? Are they a ticket to a good job or not?

我们真正需要的是让学生能够真正了解这些信息，他们在社区大学能够得到什么，一份好工作的入场券吗？

Is your argument that it's a waste of money?

你不会觉得这是在浪费钱吗？

No, not at all. My argument is, let's give students financial support, especially those who need it the most, through a Pell Grant,

不，完全不会。我的观点是，我们通过佩尔助学金为学生提供经济支持，尤其是那些最需要这笔钱的学生，

and allow them to chart a path to their own -- around their own needs, including community colleges. But let's not limit it to community colleges.

并让他们能够围绕自己的需求规划出一条通向未来的道路，包括上社区大学，但我们不应该仅仅局限在社区大学。

Well, as we reported, there's a lively debate around this -- around this issue. And we're so grateful to you, Margaret Spellings, for joining us. Thank you very much.

正如我们报道的，他们围绕这个问题展开了一场激烈的辩论。非常感谢你，玛格丽特·斯佩林斯，能够参加我们的节目。非常感谢。

Thanks, Judy.

谢谢，朱迪。

And, tomorrow night, we will hear the case for providing free community college. That will come from another former secretary of education, John King, who served under President Obama.

明晚，我们将听取关于提供免费社区大学的案例。谈话将来自另一位曾在奥巴马政府任职的前教育部长约翰·金。