PBS高端访谈:维密抛弃性感模特的背后是怎样一场翻天覆地的文化蜕变?（在线收听）

Now to a topic we don't often cover on the "NewsHour," but one that matters to millions of American women.

现在讲讲一个我们不常在“新闻一小时”节目中提及的话题，但它对数百万美国女性至关重要。

It is lingerie and the change in direction announced this week by the country's largest brand for lingerie, Victoria's Secret.

本周，英国最大的内衣品牌“维多利亚的秘密”宣布了这一改变。

Its reputation was built on creating a sexy, yet accessible fantasy. But critics say that fantasy was targeted toward men, not women.

它的名声建立在创造一个性感但平易近人的幻想之上。但批评人士表示，这种幻想针对的是男性而不是女性。

The company announced a sweeping overhaul yesterday that it says will better reflect the times and what women want.

该公司昨天宣布了一项全面改革，称这将更好地反映时代和女性的需求。

Gone is its stable of Angels, the supermodels who starred in glossy ads and its annual big-budget fashion show.

一去不复返的是那些天使，那些在光鲜的广告中担任主角的超级名模以及一年一度的大预算时装秀。

The new faces of the brand are women who don't fit the traditional Victoria's Secret mold.

该品牌的新面孔是不符合传统维密模式的女性。

Vanessa Friedman is The New York Times' fashion editor and chief fashion critic, and she joins me now.

凡妮莎·弗里德曼是《纽约时报》的时尚编辑和首席时尚评论家，她现在加入了我的采访。

Vanessa Friedman, welcome to the "NewsHour." So, I saw that the headline on your article referred to Victoria's Secret as the embattled company. Why are they making this move now?

凡妮莎·弗里德曼，欢迎来到“新闻一小时”，我看到你文章的标题说维多利亚的秘密现在四面楚歌，他们为什么做出这一改变？

I mean, they clearly have realized that they are deeply out of step with the cultural tenor of the times.

我的意思是，他们显然已经意识到自己和这个时代的文化基调脱节了。

They are a company that came to represent sizes and racism, sexism, and this is a time when all of those things are on the wane.

他们是一家代表规模、种族主义和性别歧视的公司，而这是一个所有这些都在衰落的时代。

Inclusivity and diversity are on the rise, and people are speaking up and demanding that you know what they buy reflects their values.

包容性和多样性正在上升，人们正大声疾呼，要求他们购买的东西能够反映他们的价值观。

And we went and looked at some of the things you have written in the past about the company over the years.

我们去看了你过去几年写的关于公司的一些东西。

And we saw that, what, three years ago, you were commenting on their season rollout of fashion that year, and you said they are catering to an era on its way to extinction.

我们看到，三年前，你在评论他们那一季的时装发布会，你说他们在迎合一个正在走向灭绝的时代。

So, have they past -- are they long past the time when they should have made these changes?

那么，他们是否早就应该做出这些改变了呢？

Certainly, I think they feel that way. And most of their critics would say they certainly have been.

当然，我想他们是这么想的。而他们的大多数批评者会说他们早该这样了。

That was actually their last fashion show. It took place in 2018. And they say they will bring it back in some form. It is going to look very different.

那是他们最后一场时装秀，2018年的那场。他们说会以某种形式让它回归，看上去会非常不同。

You know, what's fascinating to me is, Victoria's Secret was literally founded as a store that men could feel comfortable in buying lingerie for their girlfriends. So it was founded for men, as much as women.

你知道吗，让我着迷的是，维多利亚的秘密实际上是一个男人可以安心地为他们的女朋友买内衣的商店。所以它是为男人和女人建立的品牌。

Tell us a little more, Vanessa Friedman, about why Victoria's Secret has been as successful as it's been.

瓦内萨·弗里德曼，请告诉我们更多关于维多利亚的秘密为何如此成功的原因。

As we said at the outset, they are the most -- they're the largest women's lingerie brand. Why have they been as successful as they have been?

就像我们一开始说的，他们是最大的女性内衣品牌。为什么他们会如此成功？

They're enormously dominant in their sector. And they sell still over $5 billion of lingerie a year. So, they're certainly something to be reckoned with.

他们在自己的领域占据了巨大的主导地位。她们每年的内衣销售额仍超过50亿美元。所以，它们当然是需要认真考虑的。

They understood, I think, very early on that they could use a lot of the cultural currents that were -- that were coming up in the early '90s,

我觉得，他们很早就知道自己可以利用90年代早期出现的很多文化潮流，

whether that was reality TV, or sex tapes, or irony, kitsch, kind of the fun of dressing up, and create a sort of form of entertainment out of that, which would then sell their products.

无论是真人秀，性爱录像，讽刺，媚俗，打扮的乐趣，并以此创造一种娱乐形式，然后销售自己的产品。

And that TV show, the fashion show, was incredibly popular. It aired around the world in hundreds of countries. And millions of people watched it.

那个电视节目，那个时尚秀，非常受欢迎，在全球数百个国家播出，有百万人观看。

So, it did -- it worked for a very long time. But when it stopped working, it took them, I think, also a long time to realize it.

所以，它在很长一段时间内都起作用了。但当它不再起作用时，我想他们也花了很长时间才意识到这一点。

Describe the kind of pressure they're feeling right now in the marketplace.

描述一下他们现在在市场上所感受到的压力吧。

Well, their sales have slipped. I mean, that's partly due to COVID. They have gone from $7 billion to $5 billion in sales.

嗯，他们的销售额下降了。我的意思是，部分原因是新冠病毒。他们的销售额从70亿美元下降到了50亿美元。

And there is a real outcry now among consumers, particularly women, for clothing that reflects who they are and caters to what they need, what women want, as opposed to what men want.

现在，消费者，尤其是女性，对那些反映出她们是谁、满足她们需求的服装发出了强烈抗议，这些服装是女性想要的，而不是男性想要的。

And so they're feeling that pressure. And then there's the whole Epstein relationship, which has created -- cast a real cloud over the brand.

所以他们感到了压力。还有爱普斯坦的关系，给这个品牌蒙上了一层阴影。

The former chairman Les Wexner was very close to Jeffrey Epstein. And that's put them in the news in a way that probably is not particularly helpful for them.

前董事长莱斯·韦克斯纳与杰弗里·爱泼斯坦关系非常密切，这使得他们以一种可能对自己没有特别的帮助的方式出现了在新闻中。

A lot of turmoil with that company. And Victoria's Secret has split off from the parent company. So, what, in the end, Vanessa Friedman, determines whether this is a successful move or not?

那家公司有很多麻烦。维多利亚的秘密已经从其母公司分离出来了。那么，凡妮莎·弗里德曼，决定这一举措能否成功的究竟是什么呢？

The consumer will tell. Will women buy this switcheroo? Will they buy the fact that, instead of an Angel, you have a soccer star?

消费者会告诉你答案。女士们会为这种突如其来的变化买单吗？她们能接受用足球明星来代替天使这一事实吗？

You have Megan Rapinoe, or you have Eileen Gu, the Olympian freestyle freestyle skier. You have got Paloma Elsesser, who's a real advocate for body inclusivity.

有梅根·拉皮诺，或者奥运自由式滑雪选手艾琳·古，还有帕洛玛·埃尔塞瑟，身体包容性的真正倡导者。

Will women believe that switch or not? Remains to be seen.

女士们会相信这种转变吗？一起都还有待观察。

And, presumably, this is not the only company going through something like this?

而且，想必这不是唯一一家遭遇这种情况的公司吧？

No, but it is the most extreme example, I think, of a company that really represented one specific set of values, which had to do with objectifying women and the male gaze,

不是，不过我觉得维密是最极端的例子。这家公司真正代表了一套特定的价值观，即物化女性和男性的凝视，

trying to very quickly switch to becoming what the CEO says is the world's leading advocate for women. It's a pretty big switch.

试图迅速转变为其CEO所说的世界上领先的女性倡导者。这是一个相当大的转变。

A pretty big -- pretty big switch. Vanessa Friedman, who is The New York Times fashion editor and chief fashion critic, thank you very much.

一个相当大的转变。感谢《纽约时报》时尚编辑兼首席时尚评论家凡妮莎·弗里德曼。

Thank you.

谢谢。