美国国家公共电台 NPR--Ukraine's counteroffensive has some Russian officials calling for Putin to resign

Ukraine's counteroffensive has some Russian officials calling for Putin to resign

Transcript¹

NPR's A Martinez talks to Sergey Radchenko, professor of Russian history at Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies, about President Putin's supporters questioning Russia's strategy.

A MART?NEZ, HOST:

Ukraine's counteroffensive and the surprise gains that Greg just talked about have some of Vladimir Putin's loyal supporters questioning Russian military strategy and even Putin himself. A number of government officials are calling for his resignation; others say he should be charged with treason, even when speaking out puts them at risk.

Sergey Radchenko is a professor of Russian history at the Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies. Professor, inside Russia, do we know how people are receiving the news or actually if they are getting this news at all?

SERGEY RADCHENKO: I think people are getting this news. It's seeping² through on TV shows. There has been some debate, unusually, you know, about the direction of this war. Also, there are Telegram channels which people follow, and they see the - there's considerable amount of confusion and consternation³ in those channels about the direction the war is taking.

MART?NEZ: Why do you think that is happening now? Last night, as you mentioned, there was a television show where a former member of Russia's Parliament said that it was impossible for Russia to beat back the latest Ukrainian offensive and that they should be negotiating for peace right now, something that it would be unheard of even two weeks ago, much less than last night.

RADCHENKO: So those TV shows sometimes have people who present a contrary point of view. You're allowed to disagree with the mainstream⁴ narrative⁵ on those shows as long as you do not question Putin or criticize Putin personally. However, that debate was unusually intense - that show that you referred to. So that itself already shows the degree of confusion. I mean, there are - there's a group of Russians - a certain percentage of the population - who are extremely nationalistic and who have been pushing for this war. And they are now seeing their hopes very much disappointed, and they're looking for somebody to blame.

MART?NEZ: Yeah. And on that TV show, that former Russian Parliament member I mentioned said that Vladimir Putin must be getting bad information. So there was a little cover that he provided there.

RADCHENKO: Exactly. And this is the extent of criticism that you're allowed. It must be that, you know, the tsar is misinformed. Somebody's making mistakes, not Putin himself. He's just been misinformed. But what you can see from this is that there is some debate and some sort of reflection going on within the Russian side. But what I would say to this, though, is that we do not see, at this stage, Putin's position compromise. No senior government officials have actually resigned. So I would be very cautious in saying that, you know, somehow Putin is on his way out.

MART?NEZ: How possible, though, do you think it is that Vladimir Putin would be getting bad information?

RADCHENKO: It is possible. Certainly, he is - his whole blunder, this war in Ukraine, was certainly partly a result of bad information, as well as, of course, his imperialist proclivities⁶. You know, the guy is very much in isolation⁷. He's speaking to his intelligence services. He's speaking to his military. And the information they provide is one-sided. So it is possible that he does not fully⁸ understand just the - just how bad things are. But I also would not overestimate⁹ the degree of his isolation.

MART?NEZ: I remember at the start of the war, Vladimir Putin called Russia's invasion of Ukraine a denazification mission - in other words, that Ukraine is filled with dangerous Nazis¹⁰. Has the war now maybe changed the way Russians look at Ukraine?

RADCHENKO: So this was part of this whole discourse¹¹ to justify¹² the Russian war in Ukraine. Allegedly, Ukraine was run by Nazis, so we had to denazify Ukraine. Unfortunately, a lot of people in Russia bought into this rhetoric¹³. I do not think that Putin himself believes this, and I don't think that the propaganda people who, you know, turn up on Russian shows actually believe what they're saying about denazification of Ukraine. But you have to have some kind of rationalization because otherwise this would look very bad, you know, as, of course, it is - you know, invading a sovereign neighboring country. So I would - you know, I would say, yeah, this narrative still exists. Even today, there's still talk about denazification.

MART?NEZ: So could this be, right now, maybe a turning point in the war, an inflection point where Vladimir Putin somehow turns either in a peaceful way or in a worse way, a more dangerous way?

RADCHENKO: It absolutely could be, in the sense that there's still scope for escalation¹⁴. I would not - I would caution against euphoria in the West. We have seen Russia suffering setbacks before and then coming back again. Obviously, they suffered a major setback¹⁵, but they do retain considerable latent capacity for inflicting¹⁶ damage on Ukraine. And they haven't done certain things like, for example, declaring partial mobilization, which could help them achieve that. So there is still potential for Russia to make gains in Ukraine, but there's also potential for Ukraine to really push forward and, you know, chase the Russians out of the territories that they control. But as this happens, and if this happens, then I think we'll have to be very cautious and just remember there's still potential for things to escalate¹⁷.

MART?NEZ: When it comes to support from the Russian people, how much of this hinges on who Russians believe they are fighting, either Ukraine or maybe NATO - an expansion of NATO?

RADCHENKO: So the Russians have been told that this is a war against NATO, and I think that makes it easier for the Russians to stomach the fact that they're losing in Ukraine. This is just part of the narrative that the government is promoting.

MART?NEZ: Professor Sergey Radchenko of the Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies.

1 transcript   

n.抄本，誊本，副本，肄业证书

参考例句：

• A transcript of the tapes was presented as evidence in court.一份录音带的文字本作为证据被呈交法庭。
• They wouldn't let me have a transcript of the interview.他们拒绝给我一份采访的文字整理稿。

2 seeping   

v.（液体）渗( seep的现在分词 )；渗透；渗出；漏出

参考例句：

• Water had been slowly seeping away from the pond. 池塘里的水一直在慢慢渗漏。 来自《简明英汉词典》
• Chueh-hui could feel the cold seeping into his bones. 觉慧开始觉得寒气透过衣服浸到身上来了。 来自汉英文学 - 家（1-26） - 家（1-26）

3 consternation   

n.大为吃惊，惊骇

参考例句：

• He was filled with consternation to hear that his friend was so ill.他听说朋友病得那么厉害，感到非常震惊。
• Sam stared at him in consternation.萨姆惊恐不安地注视着他。

4 mainstream   

n.（思想或行为的）主流；adj.主流的

参考例句：

• Their views lie outside the mainstream of current medical opinion.他们的观点不属于当今医学界观点的主流。
• Polls are still largely reflects the mainstream sentiment.民调还在很大程度上反映了社会主流情绪。

5 narrative   

n.叙述，故事；adj.叙事的，故事体的

参考例句：

• He was a writer of great narrative power.他是一位颇有记述能力的作家。
• Neither author was very strong on narrative.两个作者都不是很善于讲故事。

6 proclivities   

n.倾向，癖性( proclivity的名词复数 )

参考例句：

• Raised by adoptive parents,Hill received early encouragement in her musical proclivities. 希尔由养父母带大，从小，她的音乐爱好就受到了鼓励。 来自《简明英汉词典》
• Whatever his political connections and proclivities, he did not care to neglect so powerful a man. 无论他的政治关系和脾气如何，他并不愿怠慢这样有势力的人。 来自辞典例句

7 isolation   

n.隔离，孤立，分解，分离

参考例句：

• The millionaire lived in complete isolation from the outside world.这位富翁过着与世隔绝的生活。
• He retired and lived in relative isolation.他退休后，生活比较孤寂。

8 fully   

adv.完全地，全部地，彻底地；充分地

参考例句：

• The doctor asked me to breathe in,then to breathe out fully.医生让我先吸气，然后全部呼出。
• They soon became fully integrated into the local community.他们很快就完全融入了当地人的圈子。

9 overestimate   

v.估计过高，过高评价

参考例句：

• Don't overestimate seriousness of the problem.别把问题看重了。
• We overestimate our influence and our nuisance value.我们过高地估计了自己的影响力和破坏作用。

10 Nazis   

n.（德国的）纳粹党员( Nazi的名词复数 )；纳粹主义

参考例句：

• The Nazis worked them over with gun butts. 纳粹分子用枪托毒打他们。 来自《简明英汉词典》
• The Nazis were responsible for the mass murder of Jews during World War Ⅱ. 纳粹必须为第二次世界大战中对犹太人的大屠杀负责。 来自《简明英汉词典》

11 discourse   

n.论文，演说；谈话；话语；vi.讲述，著述

参考例句：

• We'll discourse on the subject tonight.我们今晚要谈论这个问题。
• He fell into discourse with the customers who were drinking at the counter.他和站在柜台旁的酒客谈了起来。

12 justify   

vt.证明…正当(或有理)，为…辩护

参考例句：

• He tried to justify his absence with lame excuses.他想用站不住脚的借口为自己的缺席辩解。
• Can you justify your rude behavior to me?你能向我证明你的粗野行为是有道理的吗？

13 rhetoric   

n.修辞学，浮夸之言语

参考例句：

• Do you know something about rhetoric?你懂点修辞学吗？
• Behind all the rhetoric,his relations with the army are dangerously poised.在冠冕堂皇的言辞背后，他和军队的关系岌岌可危。

14 escalation   

n.扩大，增加

参考例句：

• The threat of nuclear escalation remains. 核升级的威胁仍旧存在。 来自辞典例句
• Escalation is thus an aspect of deterrence and of crisis management. 因此逐步升级是威慑和危机处理的一个方面。 来自辞典例句

15 setback   

n.退步，挫折，挫败

参考例句：

• Since that time there has never been any setback in his career.从那时起他在事业上一直没有遇到周折。
• She views every minor setback as a disaster.她把每个较小的挫折都看成重大灾难。

16 inflicting   

把…强加给，使承受，遭受( inflict的现在分词 )

参考例句：

• He was charged with maliciously inflicting grievous bodily harm. 他被控蓄意严重伤害他人身体。
• It's impossible to do research without inflicting some pain on animals. 搞研究不让动物遭点罪是不可能的。

17 escalate   

v.(使)逐步增长(或发展)，(使)逐步升级

参考例句：

• It would tempt Israel's neighbors to escalate their demands.它将诱使以色列的邻国不断把他们的要求升级。
• Defeat could cause one side or other to escalate the conflict.失败可能会导致其中一方将冲突升级。