美国国家公共电台 NPR Rep. Chaffetz Says Town Hall Protesters 'Intimidate And Bully People'

 

STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:

Let's hear a congressman¹ who was booed at a town hall meeting this month. It's one of many meetings that have turned raucous².

(SOUNDBITE OF TOWN HALL MEETING)

UNIDENTIFIED PEOPLE: (Chanting) Do your job. Do your job. Do your job.

INSKEEP: Some of the crowd told Jason Chaffetz of Utah, do your job. Chaffetz leads a House committee on investigations⁴, and voters wanted him to investigate President Trump⁵. The congressman said he'd been targeted by protesters from out of state. On MORNING EDITION yesterday, we interviewed voters who attended. We verified that they live in Chaffetz's district. And one even said she voted for him, which we told the congressman as we began a lengthy⁶ discussion.

Do you accept that the people at that town hall meeting were your constituents⁷?

JASON CHAFFETZ: Oh, I think the overwhelming majority of people were from Utah.

INSKEEP: He still insists law enforcement told him that some people were from out of state. He says he doesn't mind criticism.

CHAFFETZ: But I did think it was a bit over the top for an hour and 15-plus minutes to yell, scream, flail⁸ and try to, I think, intimidate⁹ and to bully¹⁰ people.

INSKEEP: Congressman Chaffetz was on the line from his home in Utah. He's 49 years old, in his ninth year in Congress, having easily won re-election. Like other Republicans, the chairman of the House oversight¹¹ committee faces pressure to use Congress as a check on the White House. Chaffetz insists he's doing that.

CHAFFETZ: He is the president of the United States. He has a duty and an obligation to put the country first, and we'll keep a watchful¹² eye on that. But I'm also not going to go on fishing expeditions.

INSKEEP: The congressman says he is examining four things relating to the president. He's investigating Michael Flynn, the recently departed national security adviser¹³. Chaffetz criticized presidential adviser Kellyanne Conway for promoting a Trump company. He's asked questions about Trump's Washington hotel and the president's handling of classified information, although Chaffetz knows some voters expect more.

CHAFFETZ: A lot of liberals in particular are surprised and shocked that Donald Trump actually won. They still don't understand it, and there's still a lot of concern. And some of it's very legitimate¹⁴ concern. I have questions myself. But I want to have that dialogue, and I want to try to come up with as much bipartisan support as we can for our way forward.

INSKEEP: Congressman, you said you have some questions yourself about President Trump. Let me ask about that - is the president really, as you have said, exempt¹⁵ from any business conflict of interest?

CHAFFETZ: He is. In fact, Chuck Todd on "Meet The Press" was very good in clarifying that. The president is exempt from the conflict-of-interest laws. And a lot of people who, for instance, wanted to see his tax returns - I went on national news multiple times saying I thought Donald Trump, as a candidate, should have released his tax returns. But it's not required by law.

INSKEEP: I want to be clear on this because you're correct that there is a federal conflict-of-interest law that excludes the president. But we were speaking with Richard Painter, who's a Republican ethics¹⁶ lawyer. He served under President George W. Bush in the Bush White House in an ethics position. And he said there are a lot of other laws that do apply. Let's listen to him.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED BROADCAST)

RICHARD PAINTER: The Emoluments¹⁷ Clause applies to everybody in the government, including the president. We have foreign state-owned banks that lease space in Trump buildings, loans from the Bank of China, the various Trump businesses - all of that needs to be unwound by January 20, or he needs to sell those businesses. That's the price of public service.

INSKEEP: That was Richard Painter, by the way, saying back in December, President Trump, then President-elect Trump was wrong to say he could not have a conflict of interest. Obviously, the president's businesses were not unwound by January 20. He still owns everything. Should everything have been unwound?

CHAFFETZ: You're going to have to ask the White House about that, but I disagree with Mr. Painter. I've met with him. I've spoken with him. He's got a very interesting perspective. But the president is exempt from the conflict-of-interest laws.

INSKEEP: Congressman, I just have to be...

CHAFFETZ: But...

INSKEEP: Forgive me. I have to be really clear on this. You said the president is exempt from conflict of interest. There's a law about what you're supposed to do before you go into office and the way you're supposed to recuse yourself from certain decisions. President is exempt from that. But the Emoluments Clause in the Constitution forbids him from receiving gifts. There are bribery²⁰ laws that forbid federal officials from receiving bribes²¹. Are you suggesting that it's OK - it's legal if the president takes a bribe¹⁹ or takes a gift from a foreign nation?

CHAFFETZ: No, of course not. Nobody suggests that a bribe is acceptable at any level of government. But businesses and their ongoing²² operations - does that constitute a violation²³? At least as what I've seen so far, I don't think so.

INSKEEP: There are some specific items that have come to our attention that do seem interesting. For example, the president, a number of times, has visited Mar-a-Lago of course, which he owns, which is a home and also a resort, a private club. And an ethics lawyer who spoke¹⁸ with us, Kathleen Clark, said that amounts to product placement. And she went on to point out that according to CNBC...

CHAFFETZ: (Laughter) Come on.

INSKEEP: Well...

CHAFFETZ: Seriously?

INSKEEP: Well, because...

CHAFFETZ: That's ridiculous.

INSKEEP: ...It gets lots of publicity²⁴. And as of January 1, according to CNBC...

CHAFFETZ: (Laughter) He's not buying that publicity.

INSKEEP: That's true. He's getting free...

CHAFFETZ: (Laughter) That's ridiculous.

INSKEEP: That's right. He's getting free publicity.

CHAFFETZ: Keep going, but that's ridiculous.

INSKEEP: OK, I'll keep going.

CHAFFETZ: But keep going.

INSKEEP: So he gets free publicity, according to the ethics lawyer anyway. And as of January 1...

CHAFFETZ: (Laughter).

INSKEEP: ...According to CNBC, the fees for this private club went from $100,000 to $200,000 dollars. Is the president profiting from his office?

CHAFFETZ: (Laughter) That's ridiculous. I really - I think that's just silly. That's the silly season. We were very concerned in the oversight committee about the potential mishandling of classified information while he was at Mar-a-Lago. The pictures we've...

INSKEEP: Oh, sure. There were photos of him out on a deck...

CHAFFETZ: Yeah.

INSKEEP: ...With the public...

CHAFFETZ: Yeah.

INSKEEP: ...Or with the members.

CHAFFETZ: And I - and that did not seem acceptable. And I did send a letter asking for clarification and really need further clarification that they are able to handle classified information. But it is something that the committee is concerned about. Anytime you have mishandling of classified information, I'm very, very concerned about that. I was very concerned with Hillary Clinton on that. I'm very concerned at Donald Trump. That does raise a lot of eyebrows²⁵, enough so that the committee is investigating that.

INSKEEP: Let me ask about another case. Kathleen Clark - ethics lawyer, professor at Washington University in St. Louis - was on the program February 10, and she raised concerns about a Trump business project. Now the Trump Organization has said it's supposed to stop new overseas deals, although it's continuing to do business overseas. They're continuing to do domestic deals. And Kathleen Clark was interested in a deal that appears to include foreign investment. Let's listen.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED BROADCAST)

KATHLEEN CLARK: What we now know is that the Trump Organization plans to go forward with hotel deals, among others - for instance, one in Dallas that involves foreign money - money from, among other places, Kazakhstan. And so there's a legitimate concern about whether the president is going to be influenced in how he acts as president by the prospect²⁶ and by receiving benefits.

INSKEEP: Is that a legitimate concern, as she says?

CHAFFETZ: I think it's something that should be paid attention to long term. If there's evidence that somebody was using the White House inappropriately to overstep their bounds, as we saw the situation with the person - Kellyanne Conway who went on television and started talking about Ivanka Trump's clothing line, you can't do that.

INSKEEP: Are you looking into that Dallas deal and the foreign money in that Dallas deal?

CHAFFETZ: I have not. That's first I've ever heard of that.

INSKEEP: OK. Is that something that would be a legitimate subject of investigation³ for your committee?

CHAFFETZ: You'd - there would have to be evidence. Again, not looking at any of the details - but unless there's evidence that they were somehow misusing²⁷ the office, that would be a different standard than the normal course of business that the Trump Organization - and there's lots of different investments and companies and holding companies and whatnot - you know, absent to that, I don't think that the committee would be looking into that.

INSKEEP: I should give you a chance to be clear on this because someone will be listening and thinking - isn't that the reason you investigate, to find evidence rather than waiting on evidence before you investigate?

CHAFFETZ: Oh, sure, sure. And, you know, we - the federal government has some 2 million employees. They spend $4 trillion, and we have some 60 people that work in our committee, at least on the Republican side of the aisle²⁸. So we have to pick and choose where to go. Right now, we have four areas in which we are looking very specifically, you know, at the White House. And I also don't pre-announce all of our investigations either. As much as NPR would love to have me pre-announce it, I oftentimes will look at it before we ever announce anything publicly. And certainly, anybody who's ever done any sort of investigation would know and appreciate that we usually, generally, don't pre-announce them.

INSKEEP: Elijah Cummings, your Democratic colleague, the ranking member on your committee, was on the program and accused you of a double standard. He said if it were Hillary Clinton who was president, you'd be trying a lot harder. Is that true?

CHAFFETZ: No. That's disappointing that Elijah Cummings would say that. I have the greatest respect for him. I've worked well with him. We have done a lot of things together, and we're doing things together right now. But...

INSKEEP: I should quote him directly to be totally fair. His quote was "all you have to do is say, if Hillary did this, what would the Republicans do?" That was his specific language.

CHAFFETZ: I think that's an oversimplification. And I would remind people, people who'd said, you know, Elijah Cummings, say - well, let's start investigating Donald Trump before he was sworn-in. I didn't start investigating Hillary Clinton before she was sworn-in. I started investigating what Hillary Clinton said and did after the attacks in Benghazi some nearly four years after she took office. I started looking at the email investigation because the inspector²⁹ general found that there was classified information in a non-classified setting. That's why I started that investigation. So for using the Hillary Clinton standard - if that's the standard, wow. We're about four years ahead of schedule.

INSKEEP: Congressman Jason Chaffetz of Utah, thanks for taking the time.

CHAFFETZ: Oh, thank you.

INSKEEP: He's chairman of the House oversight committee. Now, on Inauguration³⁰ Day, Chaffetz posted a photo with Hillary Clinton and a caption³¹, the investigation continues. He told us he's still focused on the defeated presidential candidate's emails.

1 Congressman   

n.（美）国会议员

参考例句：

• He related several anecdotes about his first years as a congressman.他讲述自己初任议员那几年的几则轶事。
• The congressman is meditating a reply to his critics.这位国会议员正在考虑给他的批评者一个答复。

2 raucous   

adj.(声音)沙哑的，粗糙的

参考例句：

• I heard sounds of raucous laughter upstairs.我听见楼上传来沙哑的笑声。
• They heard a bottle being smashed,then more raucous laughter.他们听见酒瓶摔碎的声音，然后是一阵更喧闹的笑声。

3 investigation   

n.调查，调查研究

参考例句：

• In an investigation,a new fact became known, which told against him.在调查中新发现了一件对他不利的事实。
• He drew the conclusion by building on his own investigation.他根据自己的调查研究作出结论。

4 investigations   

（正式的）调查( investigation的名词复数 )； 侦查； 科学研究； 学术研究

参考例句：

• His investigations were intensive and thorough but revealed nothing. 他进行了深入彻底的调查，但没有发现什么。
• He often sent them out to make investigations. 他常常派他们出去作调查。

5 trump   

n.王牌，法宝；v.打出王牌，吹喇叭

参考例句：

• He was never able to trump up the courage to have a showdown.他始终鼓不起勇气摊牌。
• The coach saved his star player for a trump card.教练保留他的明星选手，作为他的王牌。

6 lengthy   

adj.漫长的，冗长的

参考例句：

• We devoted a lengthy and full discussion to this topic.我们对这个题目进行了长时间的充分讨论。
• The professor wrote a lengthy book on Napoleon.教授写了一部有关拿破仑的巨著。

7 constituents   

n.选民( constituent的名词复数 )；成分；构成部分；要素

参考例句：

• She has the full support of her constituents. 她得到本区选民的全力支持。
• Hydrogen and oxygen are the constituents of water. 氢和氧是水的主要成分。 来自《简明英汉词典》

8 flail   

v.用连枷打；击打；n.连枷（脱粒用的工具）

参考例句：

• No fence against flail.飞来横祸不胜防。
• His arms were flailing in all directions.他的手臂胡乱挥舞着。

9 intimidate   

vt.恐吓，威胁

参考例句：

• You think you can intimidate people into doing what you want?你以为你可以威胁别人做任何事？
• The first strike capacity is intended mainly to intimidate adversary.第一次攻击的武力主要是用来吓阻敌方的。

10 bully   

n.恃强欺弱者，小流氓；vt.威胁，欺侮

参考例句：

• A bully is always a coward.暴汉常是懦夫。
• The boy gave the bully a pelt on the back with a pebble.那男孩用石子掷击小流氓的背脊。

11 oversight   

n.勘漏，失察，疏忽

参考例句：

• I consider this a gross oversight on your part.我把这件事看作是你的一大疏忽。
• Your essay was not marked through an oversight on my part.由于我的疏忽你的文章没有打分。

12 watchful   

adj.注意的，警惕的

参考例句：

• The children played under the watchful eye of their father.孩子们在父亲的小心照看下玩耍。
• It is important that health organizations remain watchful.卫生组织保持警惕是极为重要的。

13 adviser   

n.劝告者，顾问

参考例句：

• They employed me as an adviser.他们聘请我当顾问。
• Our department has engaged a foreign teacher as phonetic adviser.我们系已经聘请了一位外籍老师作为语音顾问。

14 legitimate   

adj.合法的，合理的，合乎逻辑的；v.使合法

参考例句：

• Sickness is a legitimate reason for asking for leave.生病是请假的一个正当的理由。
• That's a perfectly legitimate fear.怀有这种恐惧完全在情理之中。

15 exempt   

adj.免除的；v.使免除；n.免税者，被免除义务者

参考例句：

• These goods are exempt from customs duties.这些货物免征关税。
• He is exempt from punishment about this thing.关于此事对他已免于处分。

16 ethics   

n.伦理学；伦理观，道德标准

参考例句：

• The ethics of his profession don't permit him to do that.他的职业道德不允许他那样做。
• Personal ethics and professional ethics sometimes conflict.个人道德和职业道德有时会相互抵触。

17 emoluments   

n.报酬，薪水( emolument的名词复数 )

参考例句：

• The emoluments of this profession is not satisfactory. 此行业的报酬不令人满意。 来自辞典例句
• Emoluments connected with this position include free education for the children. 与这职务有关的酬劳包括为子女提供免费教育。 来自互联网

18 spoke   

n.（车轮的）辐条；轮辐；破坏某人的计划；阻挠某人的行动 v.讲，谈（speak的过去式）；说；演说；从某种观点来说

参考例句：

• They sourced the spoke nuts from our company.他们的轮辐螺帽是从我们公司获得的。
• The spokes of a wheel are the bars that connect the outer ring to the centre.辐条是轮子上连接外圈与中心的条棒。

19 bribe   

n.贿赂；v.向…行贿，买通

参考例句：

• He tried to bribe the policeman not to arrest him.他企图贿赂警察不逮捕他。
• He resolutely refused their bribe.他坚决不接受他们的贿赂。

20 bribery   

n.贿络行为，行贿，受贿

参考例句：

• FBI found out that the senator committed bribery.美国联邦调查局查明这个参议员有受贿行为。
• He was charged with bribery.他被指控受贿。

21 bribes   

n.贿赂( bribe的名词复数 )；向（某人）行贿，贿赂v.贿赂( bribe的第三人称单数 )；向（某人）行贿，贿赂

参考例句：

• It was alleged that he had taken bribes while in office. 他被指称在任时收受贿赂。
• corrupt officials accepting bribes 接受贿赂的贪官污吏

22 ongoing   

adj.进行中的，前进的

参考例句：

• The problem is ongoing.这个问题尚未解决。
• The issues raised in the report relate directly to Age Concern's ongoing work in this area.报告中提出的问题与“关心老人”组织在这方面正在做的工作有直接的关系。

23 violation   

n.违反(行为)，违背(行为)，侵犯

参考例句：

• He roared that was a violation of the rules.他大声说，那是违反规则的。
• He was fined 200 dollars for violation of traffic regulation.他因违反交通规则被罚款200美元。

24 publicity   

n.众所周知，闻名；宣传，广告

参考例句：

• The singer star's marriage got a lot of publicity.这位歌星的婚事引起了公众的关注。
• He dismissed the event as just a publicity gimmick.他不理会这件事，只当它是一种宣传手法。

25 eyebrows   

眉毛( eyebrow的名词复数 )

参考例句：

• Eyebrows stop sweat from coming down into the eyes. 眉毛挡住汗水使其不能流进眼睛。
• His eyebrows project noticeably. 他的眉毛特别突出。

26 prospect   

n.前景，前途；景色，视野

参考例句：

• This state of things holds out a cheerful prospect.事态呈现出可喜的前景。
• The prospect became more evident.前景变得更加明朗了。

27 misusing   

v.使用…不当( misuse的现在分词 )；把…派作不正当的用途；虐待；滥用

参考例句：

• This means we must stop misusing them. 也就是说，我们已必须停止滥用抗菌素不可了。 来自英汉非文学 - 生命科学 - 预防生物武器
• Misusing organic fertilizer may cause a decrease in the soil's quality. 滥用有机肥料可能会导致土地的土质下降。 来自互联网

28 aisle   

n.（教堂、教室、戏院等里的）过道，通道

参考例句：

• The aisle was crammed with people.过道上挤满了人。
• The girl ushered me along the aisle to my seat.引座小姐带领我沿着通道到我的座位上去。

29 inspector   

n.检查员，监察员，视察员

参考例句：

• The inspector was interested in everything pertaining to the school.视察员对有关学校的一切都感兴趣。
• The inspector was shining a flashlight onto the tickets.查票员打着手电筒查看车票。

30 inauguration   

n.开幕、就职典礼

参考例句：

• The inauguration of a President of the United States takes place on January 20.美国总统的就职典礼于一月二十日举行。
• Three celebrated tenors sang at the president's inauguration.3位著名的男高音歌手在总统就职仪式上演唱。

31 caption   

n.说明，字幕，标题；v.加上标题，加上说明

参考例句：

• I didn't understand the drawing until I read the caption.直到我看到这幅画的说明才弄懂其意思。
• There is a caption under the picture.图片下边附有说明。