美国国家公共电台 NPR Nathan Englander Says His New Book Is 'A Turducken Of A Novel'

 

SCOTT SIMON, HOST:

"Dinner At The Center Of The Earth" is a novel that winds together the stories of a prisoner, his guard, mothers, sons, spies, statesmen, traitors² and lovers. Sometimes - maybe even more than sometimes - they're the same person. "Dinner At The Center Of The Earth" is a story set amid the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. It's the latest novel by Nathan Englander, author of the acclaimed³ short story collection "What We Talk About When We Talk About Anne Frank" and distinguished⁴ writer in residence at NYU. He joins us from New York. Thanks so much for being with us.

NATHAN ENGLANDER: Thanks so much for having me. I'm pretty thrilled to be here.

SIMON: At the center of this terrific story is a prisoner - prisoner Z he's called - and his guard. Tell us about their relationship.

ENGLANDER: Yeah. I'm just very interested, you know, fascinated, heartbroken, obsessed⁵ with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and our need to find peace on that front. But, yeah, I get very interested in the weave between both sides that everyone's always like victim and avenger⁶ at the same time.

And I thought - to me, in terms of a real and metaphoric⁷ idea of it, I thought of this guard and his prisoner and the idea of both of them sort of being trapped together. There is, of course, a guard who is in a better position than a prisoner. But in the end, as the years pass, you know, it sort of becomes vague of who has freedom at all.

SIMON: I will explain. The guard is Israeli. And prisoner Z is in prison because he is accused of betraying the Israeli state.

ENGLANDER: Yeah. I guess it was the end of my last Israeli book tour. And this story broke about a prisoner - the kind of thing that, you know, catches the front page but also obsesses⁸ me, which was this notion that this prisoner, in real life, did not exist until he was dead. That is, he had been disappeared into the system.

And I thought about this notion of someone who isn't alive until they were dead. And then I read about him. And, you know, I thought about this notion - he was Australian. But I thought about somebody who becomes so dedicated⁹ to a new country and so dedicated to a state's ideology¹⁰ that he joins the Mossad, that he becomes a spy. And then to find out that he'd become a traitor¹, I thought, what would have to happen in his or her life for them to so empathize with the other side that they flipped¹¹? And that's where prisoner Z was born for me.

SIMON: And we should explain that the guard turns out to be intimately related to the larger story of Israeli history, too.

ENGLANDER: Yeah. So, you know, I call this novel sort of like a turducken of a novel. It's like a political thriller¹² that's wrapped up in a historical novel that's really a love story that ends up being an allegory. But I couldn't tell this story without doing sort of Israeli history, for me, and parts of Palestinian history. Also, there was the idea of Sharon. I have the general in this story, so...

SIMON: Sharon - we should say Ariel Sharon.

ENGLANDER: Ariel Sharon, the prime minister.

SIMON: Famous general who became prime minister.

ENGLANDER: Yeah. You know, he spent all these years in a coma¹³. And I thought this is an unkillable man - the man who will not die. And the reason I bring the general in is because of, you know, this notion that I feel like every leader, you know, of that country up to a point and to this country up to a point - no matter whether I agree with them politically, they understood their obligation was to the future of the country not to personal need, not to greed, not to any other idea.

And to me why the general becomes an interesting character is because nobody will dispute, you know, Sharon was a violent man. There's Sabra and Shatila - I mean, a killer¹⁴ and a fighter and a warrior¹⁵. And the fact that he's the one who pulled out of Gaza, I feel like anyone, up till the peace process crumbled¹⁶, understood their responsibility - that peace was not even a choice out of kindness or out of love for the other, but peace is a strategic choice. If you want Israel to survive, if you want Palestine to survive, like, peace is the only option. And, to me, to have these warriors¹⁷ who become peacemakers - even beloved Rabin that we remember...

SIMON: Yeah. When he was chief of the army, yeah.

ENGLANDER: Yes. When intifada won, he's the one who said break their bones about the young Palestinian stone throwers. Like, we remember him as peacemaker. And I said that's - these are warriors who understood if you care about the future of Israel, peace is the singular option.

SIMON: I have to tell you one of my favorite features of the novel was the central strategic role played by Jewish mothers.

ENGLANDER: Oh, that. If you think I'm not going to call my mother and report how this talk is going as soon as I get out of the studio, you are mistaken. But, you know, a lot of writers start writing close and then become more distant. But - yeah, so this notion to tell the story of my, really, heartbreak and, you know, my pessimistic optimism or optimistic pessimism¹⁸ for the peace process, I wanted it to be close.

And I really thought about it - what would happen if I were a spy? And I thought, what would my out be? Who would I be calling? Because even Prisoner X in real life - that's why I connected to the idea of this person, you know? And it is a tragedy that somebody is dead and who knows what else. It's all very secretive. But people would be like, oh, yeah, he talked about being a spy all the time. You know, like, I would be the neurotic¹⁹ spy. I wouldn't even - you know, I'd turn to the next person on the subway and be like, I'm on a mission. And I would surely be calling my mother.

SIMON: (Laughter) I wondered how you were going to, you know, stick the landing, and you sure did.

ENGLANDER: Yeah, truly.

SIMON: And let me just explain to people who are curious about the title, "Dinner At The Center Of The Earth." The title winds up explaining itself.

ENGLANDER: You are so nice for not doing that spoiler alert. But, yes, so many people discuss Israel-Palestine as if its people on a spectrum²⁰. But this notion where people say, oh, you know, Israel and Palestine, they disagree. It's not a spectrum. It's metaphysics.

They're in a different reality, whereas, I lived in Jerusalem that had the Temple Mount and a Palestinian neighbor lived in al-Quds that had Haram al-Sharif. Like, literally²¹, we're inhabiting the same space and in a different city with a different extraordinary holy place on the same spot. And, to me, you know, that gets us to the title of this book. I was looking for a space for the no man's land where a moment of understanding might take place.

SIMON: Is there an affinity²² between writers and spies?

ENGLANDER: That's funny. I'm like - I was going to the list. I was like, writers and shrinks, writers and sociopaths. But, yeah, I have a whole list of things...

SIMON: (Laughter).

ENGLANDER: Really, the link is, you know, if you strip away the neuroses, maybe. You know what I'm saying? I spend all day being other people - literally transforming. You know, for a book to function, it's not - I can tell the difference between realities. But it has to be a functioning reality. The character has to be real. And I imagine that's exactly what happens for a spy who was, you know, in deep cover.

I just think, yes, I wouldn't make it for a second if I had to do it in front of another person. So if you take the privacy of the room away, maybe that's the link. It's about inhabiting other realities in a convincing - beyond convincing. It has to be more than that. It has to be real for the person.

SIMON: Nathan Englander, his book "Dinner At The Center Of The Earth." Thanks so much for being with us.

ENGLANDER: Oh, truly, thank you.

(SOUNDBITE OF VICTOR AG'S "INDUCED OSCILATION")

1 traitor   

n.叛徒，卖国贼

参考例句：

• The traitor was finally found out and put in prison.那个卖国贼终于被人发现并被监禁了起来。
• He was sold out by a traitor and arrested.他被叛徒出卖而被捕了。

2 traitors   

卖国贼( traitor的名词复数 )； 叛徒； 背叛者； 背信弃义的人

参考例句：

• Traitors are held in infamy. 叛徒为人所不齿。
• Traitors have always been treated with contempt. 叛徒永被人们唾弃。

3 acclaimed   

adj.受人欢迎的

参考例句：

• They acclaimed him as the best writer of the year. 他们称赞他为当年的最佳作者。
• Confuscius is acclaimed as a great thinker. 孔子被赞誉为伟大的思想家。

4 distinguished   

adj.卓越的，杰出的，著名的

参考例句：

• Elephants are distinguished from other animals by their long noses.大象以其长长的鼻子显示出与其他动物的不同。
• A banquet was given in honor of the distinguished guests.宴会是为了向贵宾们致敬而举行的。

5 obsessed   

adj.心神不宁的,鬼迷心窍的,沉迷的

参考例句：

• He's obsessed by computers. 他迷上了电脑。
• The fear of death obsessed him throughout his old life. 他晚年一直受着死亡恐惧的困扰。

6 avenger   

n. 复仇者

参考例句：

• "Tom Sawyer, the Black Avenger of the Spanish Main. “我乃西班牙海黑衣侠盗，汤姆 - 索亚。
• Avenger's Shield-0.26 threat per hit (0.008 threat per second) 飞盾-0.26仇恨每击（0.08仇恨每秒）

7 metaphoric   

adj. 使用隐喻的；比喻的；比喻意义的

参考例句：

• It was a metaphoric(al) phrase; we didn't really mean that he has green fingers, only that he is good at gardening. 它是一个比喻的词组；我们并非说他长了绿手指而是说他擅长园艺技能。
• The ubiquitous mouse input device is not metaphoric of anything, but rather is learned idiomatically. 无所不在的鼠标输入设备没有任何隐喻；相反，是习惯用法的学习。 来自About Face 3交互设计精髓

8 obsesses   

v.时刻困扰( obsess的第三人称单数 )；缠住；使痴迷；使迷恋

参考例句：

• I suppose no artist achieves completely the realization of the dream that obsesses him. 我认为哪个艺术家也不可能把昼夜萦绕在他心头的梦境完全付诸实现。 来自辞典例句
• As source and, nature obsesses us, as do childhood and spontaneity, via the filter of memory. 作为资源和来源，自然总是纠缠着我们，经由记忆的过滤，就像童年和自发性所做的。 来自互联网

9 dedicated   

adj.一心一意的；献身的；热诚的

参考例句：

• He dedicated his life to the cause of education.他献身于教育事业。
• His whole energies are dedicated to improve the design.他的全部精力都放在改进这项设计上了。

10 ideology   

n.意识形态，(政治或社会的)思想意识

参考例句：

• The ideology has great influence in the world.这种思想体系在世界上有很大的影响。
• The ideal is to strike a medium between ideology and inspiration.我的理想是在意识思想和灵感鼓动之间找到一个折衷。

11 flipped   

轻弹( flip的过去式和过去分词 )； 按（开关）； 快速翻转； 急挥

参考例句：

• The plane flipped and crashed. 飞机猛地翻转，撞毁了。
• The carter flipped at the horse with his whip. 赶大车的人扬鞭朝着马轻轻地抽打。

12 thriller   

n.惊险片，恐怖片

参考例句：

• He began by writing a thriller.That book sold a million copies.他是写惊险小说起家的。那本书卖了一百万册。
• I always take a thriller to read on the train.我乘火车时，总带一本惊险小说看。

13 coma   

n.昏迷，昏迷状态

参考例句：

• The patient rallied from the coma.病人从昏迷中苏醒过来。
• She went into a coma after swallowing a whole bottle of sleeping pills.她吃了一整瓶安眠药后就昏迷过去了。

14 killer   

n.杀人者，杀人犯，杀手，屠杀者

参考例句：

• Heart attacks have become Britain's No.1 killer disease.心脏病已成为英国的头号致命疾病。
• The bulk of the evidence points to him as her killer.大量证据证明是他杀死她的。

15 warrior   

n.勇士，武士，斗士

参考例句：

• The young man is a bold warrior.这个年轻人是个很英勇的武士。
• A true warrior values glory and honor above life.一个真正的勇士珍视荣誉胜过生命。

16 crumbled   

（把…）弄碎， （使）碎成细屑( crumble的过去式和过去分词 )； 衰落； 坍塌； 损坏

参考例句：

• He crumbled the bread in his fingers. 他用手指把面包捻碎。
• Our hopes crumbled when the business went bankrupt. 商行破产了，我们的希望也破灭了。

17 warriors   

武士，勇士，战士( warrior的名词复数 )

参考例句：

• I like reading the stories ofancient warriors. 我喜欢读有关古代武士的故事。
• The warriors speared the man to death. 武士们把那个男子戳死了。

18 pessimism   

n.悲观者，悲观主义者，厌世者

参考例句：

• He displayed his usual pessimism.他流露出惯有的悲观。
• There is the note of pessimism in his writings.他的著作带有悲观色彩。

19 neurotic   

adj.神经病的，神经过敏的；n.神经过敏者，神经病患者

参考例句：

• Nothing is more distracting than a neurotic boss. 没有什么比神经过敏的老板更恼人的了。
• There are also unpleasant brain effects such as anxiety and neurotic behaviour.也会对大脑产生不良影响，如焦虑和神经质的行为。

20 spectrum   

n.谱，光谱，频谱；范围，幅度，系列

参考例句：

• This is a kind of atomic spectrum.这是一种原子光谱。
• We have known much of the constitution of the solar spectrum.关于太阳光谱的构成，我们已了解不少。

21 literally   

adv.照字面意义，逐字地；确实

参考例句：

• He translated the passage literally.他逐字逐句地翻译这段文字。
• Sometimes she would not sit down till she was literally faint.有时候，她不走到真正要昏厥了，决不肯坐下来。

22 affinity   

n.亲和力，密切关系

参考例句：

• I felt a great affinity with the people of the Highlands.我被苏格兰高地人民深深地吸引。
• It's important that you share an affinity with your husband.和丈夫有共同的爱好是十分重要的。