White House is doing its best to navigate Russia-Ukraine crisis, Sen. Sanders says

White House is doing its best to navigate¹ Russia-Ukraine crisis, Sen. Sanders says

Transcript²

Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders tells NPR's Rachel Martin that a potential war in Ukraine could have unforeseen consequences for Russia, for Ukraine and for the rest of the world.

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST:

As we just heard, world leaders are still working on a diplomatic solution, even as Russian troops have Ukraine surrounded on three sides. Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders says the U.S. should consider its next move very carefully. I talked to him yesterday.

BERNIE SANDERS: Wars have unintended consequences, you know? We saw that in Vietnam. And we saw that in Iraq. And we saw that in Afghanistan. And if Putin decides, in an absolutely outrageous³ way, to invade the Ukraine, our military experts say that there could be 50,000 casualties in Ukraine alone, not to mention millions of refugees fleeing the country, not to mention sanctions and counter-sanctions. The, you know, Russians will respond probably through cyberattacks, could impact energy and gas prices in America, food distribution, banking⁴. Who knows? So we have got to do everything that we can to try to reach a negotiated and diplomatic settlement.

MARTIN: The U.S. has taken a very public approach to its diplomacy⁵ in all this. The Pentagon revealed intelligence that said Russia was plotting to stage a fake attack on Russians living in Ukraine that could be used as a pretext⁶ for war. The U.S. has also said Russia could invade at any moment and that, in fact, they have given Wednesday as the day it could happen - very specific. By naming these alleged⁷ Russian plans, does it make it less likely that Putin will carry them out?

SANDERS: Well, I really don't know, I don't know that anybody does. But I think it's not a bad tactic⁸. If our intelligence is reporting that, it puts pressure on the Russians to say, no, no, that's not true. And if they say, no, no, that's not true, well, then they would look totally stupid if they went forward with an attack. This situation is complex. It is difficult. And the Biden administration is doing its best walking a very difficult tightrope⁹.

MARTIN: Do you agree, then, with the decision by the Biden administration to send thousands of U.S. troops to Eastern Europe?

SANDERS: Well, I think that's a signal that we stand with NATO. On the other hand, what I think the Biden administration has said is there will not be American troops in Ukraine, which I think is absolutely right.

MARTIN: You wrote in the op-ed for The Guardian¹⁰ that you hear the, quote, "drumbeats" of war in Washington. Where are those coming from?

SANDERS: Well, you know, when I hear absolutes, when people say, oh, we got to be tough, that any negotiation¹¹ is appeasement¹² and we've got to draw a hard line, I worry about those type of statements.

MARTIN: Is someone saying any kind of negotiation is appeasement?

SANDERS: They are. What you have now is, you know, folks who want to have the very, very tough line. And I'll tell you where the tough line is, you know? For a long time since the breakup of the Soviet¹³ Union, Russia has made clear, and American diplomats¹⁴ and government officials have understood, that Russia is concerned about having a hostile - they see NATO as hostile - military force at its border. And where things become complex is that sometimes, you got to put yourself into the other guy's position. I wonder how many of my colleagues from Congress would feel comfortable if, for example, a country like Mexico were to sign a military agreement with a hostile force, somebody that we considered hostile. You think that would be tolerated?

The United States, as you well know, has overthrown¹⁵ at least a dozen countries in Latin America, where we considered that what they were doing is not in our national interest. And many times, we were dead wrong in doing that. We almost went to a nuclear war in 1962 when Russia placed missiles in Cuba. So I mean, I think we have a sphere of influence. And I think it's important to understand that they have and have had concerns about hostile military forces near their border. And that's something that should be taken into consideration.

MARTIN: Let's just underscore that. You're saying that some of Russia's concerns about NATO influence spreading eastward¹⁶ or the potential of Ukraine even becoming a part of NATO, that this is a legitimate¹⁷ worry for Russia that should be taken seriously by the U.S. and NATO?

SANDERS: This is a concern that the Russians have made since the breakup of the Soviet Union. It's a concern that American officials have recognized. And all I would say is that when you enter into complex negotiations¹⁸, you have to look at the other person's point of view.

MARTIN: Then do you think the U.S. and NATO should agree to not let Ukraine into NATO? Should they make a concession¹⁹ to end the crisis?

SANDERS: That is the decision of Ukraine and decision of NATO. And that's something that, you know, is going to be negotiated. But at the end of the day, as best I can understand, Rachel, nobody believes that Ukraine is going to become a part of NATO in the near future.

MARTIN: You write that the international community will impose severe consequences on Putin and his associates if he doesn't change course. But you think sanctions won't work. Why?

SANDERS: Well, no. I didn't say that. I mean, I think that if Putin does decide, which I think would be just horrible, unimaginable - that he decides to invade Ukraine, then we have to impose sanctions. There has to be punishment for what would be the largest military action since World War II. Unacceptable. And Putin has got to understand that if he does that, there will be consequences either way. And I think a lot of those sanctions should be directly targeted to Putin and his fellow multi-billionaire oligarchs. Those are the guys that we should be going after.

MARTIN: But, Senator, I'm just quoting here from your op-ed in the Guardian says, the sanctions against Russia and Russia's threatened response to those sanctions could result in massive economic upheaval²⁰, with impacts on energy, banking, food.

SANDERS: Right. Well, then let's be realistic. We should do it. I mean, I think there's no alternative to that. But when you do that, what do you think Russia is going to do, say, oh, that's fine? They're not going to do anything. I think there will be a response. And I think the response will probably be in terms of cyberattacks, cyberwarfare, against our banking system, against our energy system, food supplies. Who knows what? All that I'm saying is you have to be naive²¹ not to believe that may happen. And if it does happen, it will happen not only to the United States, but throughout Europe. So let's sit down. Let's negotiate. And let's come up with a diplomatic solution if at all possible.

MARTIN: Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont. Thank you for your time.

SANDERS: Thank you very much.

(SOUNDBITE OF ESMERINE'S "A RIVER RUNS THROUGH THIS CITY")

1 navigate   

v.航行，飞行；导航，领航

参考例句：

• He was the first man to navigate the Atlantic by air.他是第一个飞越大西洋的人。
• Such boats can navigate on the Nile.这种船可以在尼罗河上航行。

2 transcript   

n.抄本，誊本，副本，肄业证书

参考例句：

• A transcript of the tapes was presented as evidence in court.一份录音带的文字本作为证据被呈交法庭。
• They wouldn't let me have a transcript of the interview.他们拒绝给我一份采访的文字整理稿。

3 outrageous   

adj.无理的，令人不能容忍的

参考例句：

• Her outrageous behaviour at the party offended everyone.她在聚会上的无礼行为触怒了每一个人。
• Charges for local telephone calls are particularly outrageous.本地电话资费贵得出奇。

4 banking   

n.银行业，银行学，金融业

参考例句：

• John is launching his son on a career in banking.约翰打算让儿子在银行界谋一个新职位。
• He possesses an extensive knowledge of banking.他具有广博的银行业务知识。

5 diplomacy   

n.外交；外交手腕，交际手腕

参考例句：

• The talks have now gone into a stage of quiet diplomacy.会谈现在已经进入了“温和外交”阶段。
• This was done through the skill in diplomacy. 这是通过外交手腕才做到的。

6 pretext   

n.借口，托词

参考例句：

• He used his headache as a pretext for not going to school.他借口头疼而不去上学。
• He didn't attend that meeting under the pretext of sickness.他以生病为借口，没参加那个会议。

7 alleged   

a.被指控的，嫌疑的

参考例句：

• It was alleged that he had taken bribes while in office. 他被指称在任时收受贿赂。
• alleged irregularities in the election campaign 被指称竞选运动中的不正当行为

8 tactic   

n.战略，策略；adj.战术的，有策略的

参考例句：

• Reducing prices is a common sales tactic.降价是常用的销售策略。
• She had often used the tactic of threatening to resign.她惯用以辞职相威胁的手法。

9 tightrope   

n.绷紧的绳索或钢丝

参考例句：

• The audience held their breath as the acrobat walked along the tightrope.杂技演员走钢丝时，观众都屏住了呼吸。
• The tightrope walker kept her balance by holding up an umbrella.走钢丝的演员举着一把伞，保持身体的均衡。

10 guardian   

n.监护人；守卫者，保护者

参考例句：

• The form must be signed by the child's parents or guardian. 这张表格须由孩子的家长或监护人签字。
• The press is a guardian of the public weal. 报刊是公共福利的卫护者。

11 negotiation   

n.谈判，协商

参考例句：

• They closed the deal in sugar after a week of negotiation.经过一星期的谈判，他们的食糖生意成交了。
• The negotiation dragged on until July.谈判一直拖到7月份。

12 appeasement   

n.平息，满足

参考例句：

• Music is an appeasement to shattered nerves. 音乐可抚慰受重创的神经。
• There can be no appeasement with ruthlessness. 对残暴行为是不能姑息的。 来自演讲部分

13 Soviet   

adj.苏联的，苏维埃的；n.苏维埃

参考例句：

• Zhukov was a marshal of the former Soviet Union.朱可夫是前苏联的一位元帅。
• Germany began to attack the Soviet Union in 1941.德国在1941年开始进攻苏联。

14 diplomats   

n.外交官( diplomat的名词复数 )；有手腕的人，善于交际的人

参考例句：

• These events led to the expulsion of senior diplomats from the country. 这些事件导致一些高级外交官被驱逐出境。
• The court has no jurisdiction over foreign diplomats living in this country. 法院对驻本国的外交官无裁判权。 来自《简明英汉词典》

15 overthrown   

adj. 打翻的，推倒的，倾覆的 动词overthrow的过去分词

参考例句：

• The president was overthrown in a military coup. 总统在军事政变中被赶下台。
• He has overthrown the basic standards of morality. 他已摒弃了基本的道德标准。

16 eastward   

adv.向东；adj.向东的；n.东方，东部

参考例句：

• The river here tends eastward.这条河从这里向东流。
• The crowd is heading eastward,believing that they can find gold there.人群正在向东移去，他们认为在那里可以找到黄金。

17 legitimate   

adj.合法的，合理的，合乎逻辑的；v.使合法

参考例句：

• Sickness is a legitimate reason for asking for leave.生病是请假的一个正当的理由。
• That's a perfectly legitimate fear.怀有这种恐惧完全在情理之中。

18 negotiations   

协商( negotiation的名词复数 )； 谈判； 完成（难事）； 通过

参考例句：

• negotiations for a durable peace 为持久和平而进行的谈判
• Negotiations have failed to establish any middle ground. 谈判未能达成任何妥协。

19 concession   

n.让步，妥协；特许(权)

参考例句：

• We can not make heavy concession to the matter.我们在这个问题上不能过于让步。
• That is a great concession.这是很大的让步。

20 upheaval   

n.胀起，(地壳)的隆起；剧变，动乱

参考例句：

• It was faced with the greatest social upheaval since World War Ⅱ.它面临第二次世界大战以来最大的社会动乱。
• The country has been thrown into an upheaval.这个国家已经陷入动乱之中。

21 naive   

adj.幼稚的，轻信的；天真的

参考例句：

• It's naive of you to believe he'll do what he says.相信他会言行一致，你未免太单纯了。
• Don't be naive.The matter is not so simple.你别傻乎乎的。事情没有那么简单。