PBS高端访谈:新法会遏制国家安全局的间谍吗?

 　　MARGARET WARNER: Chairman Rogers, thanks for joining us.

　　REP. MIKE ROGERS, R-Mich.: Thanks for having me.

　　MARGARET WARNER: As you know, the president is reviewing NSA surveillance policy. Whatever changes are going to happen are coming out later this month.

　　If he were seeking your counsel, what is the most profound thing you think he needs to address?

　　MIKE ROGERS: Part of the problem with where we're at is that we're fighting perception about what people think is happening vs. what's actually happening.

　　And so that's been our biggest challenge on the education piece. So, I think the first round, we all want to agree that these programs have kept Americans safe. They have kept our allies safe. There are multiple levels of oversight¹ that no other intelligence service in the world has, like the United States intelligence oversight, between the courts and the Congress and the inspector² general, and then the FBI, the Department of Justice. I mean, you name it. It has it all.

　　So I think what we can do is have some confidence-builders for the American people to look at this and understand, ah, one person can't run off and listen your phone call or read your e-mail. None of that is happening.

　　MARGARET WARNER: So, are you saying the president needs to maybe bring more transparency, do exactly what's being done, who is doing it, and what the safeguards are?

　　MIKE ROGERS: I think that would be incredibly helpful for the president to do that.

　　MARGARET WARNER: But isn't there then a tension between that and how much you want to divulge³ or he wants to divulge?

　　MIKE ROGERS: Well, absolutely.

　　I do think that we can talk about some of the oversight that we have on certain aspects of the program, certainly the business records portion, the metadata on business record -- phone records. That certainly, I think...

　　(CROSSTALK)

　　MARGARET WARNER: That is the sort of bulk collection of phone records, who you called, when you called, and the length of the call, that kind of thing?

　　MIKE ROGERS: With the exception, we don't know who you are or where you live. Right? It's just a bunch of phone numbers that we use as a foreign nexus⁴ to terrorism.

　　So, a foreigner in Afghanistan or Pakistan that we assume is a -- and have good credibility that is a terrorist has a phone number of a U.S. number, you want to be able to make that nexus. That is really what that database is.

　　MARGARET WARNER: Do you think that the balance, though, between protecting the security of this country against terrorist threat and the sort of affirmative protection of civil liberties has gotten out of whack⁵?

　　MIKE ROGERS: I don't think we're out of whack.

　　We could always improve. I would never say never in that regard. In the metadata collection, there has been no willful use to misuse⁶ the privacy of just your phone numbers, not even your name.

　　MARGARET WARNER: Yes. There seems to be no limit really on what data they can collect. And even the president said, we have to ask at some point whether the technology has outpaced the laws and protections thatare in place.

　　MIKE ROGERS: Well, I think the technology is keeping up with our adversaries⁷' interests to do harm to theUnited States and to use systems to communicate.

　　And here's what I think is a big part of it. And we constantly review this, by the way. We want to be ableto make sure our laws are consistent with technology and where we are in 2013 vs. 1947, when the National Security Act was written.

　　But you think about where we are. So, in today, in the networks in the United States of America, over 80 percent of them are private networks, which means the NSA doesn't monitor them. There is no wholesale⁸ monitoring. They're not reading your e-mails. They're not listening to your phone calls. That's simply not happening.

　　MARGARET WARNER: The Europeans are extremely upset with the Snowden revelations about the degree to which they're being surveilled.

　　MIKE ROGERS: Right.

　　Well, first of all, the hypocrisy⁹ in this debate has been shocking to me from our European allies. As I have often said, it's good to remind ourselves that espionage¹⁰ is a French word, after all.

　　And so, when you look at the intelligence services of our allies in the European Union, they are alive andwell and aggressive. And some notion that the information that we have been collecting over time hasn't benefited our allies is just simply not true -- some 54 different attacks thwarted¹¹ just by our business record metadata collection. And another program that we use to collect information has been shared with our allies and stopped terrorist attacks in Germany.

　　MARGARET WARNER: And you know that to be the case?

　　MIKE ROGERS: I absolutely know that to be the case.

　　And here's the good news. Now so do they. And so, sometimes, the politicians were saying this and not realizing that something else was going on in sharing information and cooperation.

　　MARGARET WARNER: As the big U.S. Internet giants just said this week, I mean, Yahoo! and Google and Facebook, the perception in Europe now is that doing business with our companies isn't safe, and they can't trust us, and it's hurting their business.

　　Is this something the president has to do something to address, to redress¹², and what could he do?

　　MIKE ROGERS: I think we lost the P.R. war in the front, but it's really important to understand that, again, France just passed a law to make it easier to go after servers in their own country.

　　All of the European Union now is saying, well, maybe we should have servers only stationed in our country.Well, guess what? That means that their standard of oversight, their standard of protection is very different than ours. And we do have multiple layers of oversight that they don't have.

　　MARGARET WARNER: Coming back to the U.S., the PEN writers group did a survey of 250 professional writers. It just came out this week.

　　And a quarter of these writers said they feel inhibited¹³. They are censoring¹⁴ themselves in what they discuss in e-mail, and the research they do, especially if it involves anything overseas. Does that -- as someone who has always believed individual liberties, does that concern you?

　　MIKE ROGERS: Yes, the attitude certainly does.

　　And I -- you know, that's mortifying¹⁵ to me that they would feel that that would be an issue that the government would be interested in, candidly¹⁶. Even they're engaged into some issue that may be even questionable¹⁷, if it's a political issue, and you are expressing yourself, you need to feel comfortable that you can dothat in the United States. That -- we should never lose that.

　　MARGARET WARNER: Some members of Congress, at least on the Senate side, feel that they have been misled about -- by the head of the NSA, by the director of national intelligence about how much data is being collected on Americans, metadata, whatever you want to call it.

　　Do you feel that there's been any either misleading, willful or otherwise, about the extent of that?

　　MIKE ROGERS: I know, as the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, we have had this information. We have been briefed on it. We have had opportunities to ask questions on it.

　　I supported these programs. We had some differences. We worked them out. Were there problems that we found? Yes. But we worked with them in the appropriate channels, classified channels to fix them, like you would expect us to do as members of the Oversight Committee.

　　But, at the end of the day, I supported them when nobody knew about them. And I support them now.

　　MARGARET WARNER: Chairman Mike Rogers, thank you.

　　MIKE ROGERS: Yes. Thank you.

1 oversight   

n.勘漏，失察，疏忽

参考例句：

• I consider this a gross oversight on your part.我把这件事看作是你的一大疏忽。
• Your essay was not marked through an oversight on my part.由于我的疏忽你的文章没有打分。

2 inspector   

n.检查员，监察员，视察员

参考例句：

• The inspector was interested in everything pertaining to the school.视察员对有关学校的一切都感兴趣。
• The inspector was shining a flashlight onto the tickets.查票员打着手电筒查看车票。

3 divulge   

v.泄漏(秘密等)；宣布，公布

参考例句：

• They refused to divulge where they had hidden the money.他们拒绝说出他们把钱藏在什么地方。
• He swore never to divulge the secret.他立誓决不泄露秘密。

4 nexus   

n.联系；关系

参考例句：

• Shared ambition is the vital nexus between them.共同的志向是把他们联结在一起的重要纽带。
• Either way,the nexus between the consumer and consumer prices is important.无论那个方面，消费者与消费价格之间的关系是至关重要的。

5 whack   

v.敲击，重打，瓜分；n.重击，重打，尝试，一份

参考例句：

• After years of dieting,Carol's metabolism was completely out of whack.经过数年的节食，卡罗尔的新陈代谢完全紊乱了。
• He gave me a whack on the back to wake me up.他为把我弄醒，在我背上猛拍一下。

6 misuse   

n.误用，滥用；vt.误用，滥用

参考例句：

• It disturbs me profoundly that you so misuse your talents.你如此滥用自己的才能，使我深感不安。
• He was sacked for computer misuse.他因滥用计算机而被解雇了。

7 adversaries   

n.对手，敌手( adversary的名词复数 )

参考例句：

• That would cause potential adversaries to recoil from a challenge. 这会迫使潜在的敌人在挑战面前退缩。 来自辞典例句
• Every adversaries are more comfortable with a predictable, coherent America. 就连敌人也会因有可以预料的，始终一致的美国而感到舒服得多。 来自辞典例句

8 wholesale   

n.批发；adv.以批发方式；vt.批发，成批出售

参考例句：

• The retail dealer buys at wholesale and sells at retail.零售商批发购进货物，以零售价卖出。
• Such shoes usually wholesale for much less.这种鞋批发出售通常要便宜得多。

9 hypocrisy   

n.伪善，虚伪

参考例句：

• He railed against hypocrisy and greed.他痛斥伪善和贪婪的行为。
• He accused newspapers of hypocrisy in their treatment of the story.他指责了报纸在报道该新闻时的虚伪。

10 espionage   

n.间谍行为，谍报活动

参考例句：

• The authorities have arrested several people suspected of espionage.官方已经逮捕了几个涉嫌从事间谍活动的人。
• Neither was there any hint of espionage in Hanley's early life.汉利的早期生活也毫无进行间谍活动的迹象。

11 thwarted   

阻挠( thwart的过去式和过去分词 )； 使受挫折； 挫败； 横过

参考例句：

• The guards thwarted his attempt to escape from prison. 警卫阻扰了他越狱的企图。
• Our plans for a picnic were thwarted by the rain. 我们的野餐计划因雨受挫。

12 redress   

n.赔偿，救济，矫正；v.纠正，匡正，革除

参考例句：

• He did all that he possibly could to redress the wrongs.他尽了一切努力革除弊端。
• Any man deserves redress if he has been injured unfairly.任何人若蒙受不公平的损害都应获得赔偿。

13 inhibited   

a.拘谨的，拘束的

参考例句：

• Boys are often more inhibited than girls about discussing their problems. 男孩子往往不如女孩子敢于谈论自己的问题。
• Having been laughed at for his lameness,the boy became shy and inhibited. 那男孩因跛脚被人讥笑，变得羞怯而压抑。

14 censoring   

删剪（书籍、电影等中被认为犯忌、违反道德或政治上危险的内容）( censor的现在分词 )

参考例句：

• Therefore, exhibitors shall not make use of these materials before censoring. 展商在审查前不可使用这些资料。
• The company then said it would end self-censoring search results, putting it at odds with Beijing. 随后该公司表示，将停止自我审查搜索结果，从而与中国政府发生对抗。

15 mortifying   

adj.抑制的，苦修的v.使受辱( mortify的现在分词 )；伤害（人的感情）；克制；抑制（肉体、情感等）

参考例句：

• I've said I did not love her, and rather relished mortifying her vanity now and then. 我已经说过我不爱她，而且时时以伤害她的虚荣心为乐。 来自辞典例句
• It was mortifying to know he had heard every word. 知道他听到了每一句话后真是尴尬。 来自互联网

16 candidly   

adv.坦率地，直率而诚恳地

参考例句：

• He has stopped taking heroin now,but admits candidly that he will always be a drug addict.他眼下已经不再吸食海洛因了,不过他坦言自己永远都是个瘾君子。
• Candidly,David,I think you're being unreasonable.大卫，说实话我认为你不讲道理。

17 questionable   

adj.可疑的，有问题的

参考例句：

• There are still a few questionable points in the case.这个案件还有几个疑点。
• Your argument is based on a set of questionable assumptions.你的论证建立在一套有问题的假设上。