PBS高端访谈:美国对沙特阿拉伯关于人权问题的影响

 　　JUDY WOODRUFF: Now, for more on whether the U.S. has struck the right balance between its interests and concerns over Saudi Arabia's human rights record, I'm joined by Gary Sick. He's a veteran of the White House National Security Council staff during the Ford¹, Carter and Reagan administrations. He's now at Columbia university. And Tom Porteous, he's deputy program director of the advocacy group Human Rights Watch.

　　And we welcome you both to the program.

　　Gary Sick, to you first. How would you assess Saudi Arabia's human rights record compared to other countries around the world and in the region?

　　GARY SICK, Columbia University: Well, it often isn't a — it isn't very helpful to do a comparison and saying one is better than the other in this.

　　But I must say that, you know, Saudi Arabia has one of the worst records in the region, for all the reasons that you just enumerated², but, you know, they have been cracking down hard on their internal dissent³. You know, the poor fellow who is being flogged in public is guilty of doing nothing more than practically, you know, hundreds of thousands of Americans do on Facebook every day.

　　And the other thing is that the Saudis are facing a series of challenges, which actually we can come back to that, if you like, but which, actually, some of them are their own making. And some of those have to do with human rights in terms of their ability to export their own ideas and that those ideas in many cases are coming back to bite them.

　　JUDY WOODRUFF: And we will come back to those challenges.

　　But to you, Tom Porteous, how do you size up Saudi Arabia's human rights record?

　　TOM PORTEOUS, Human Rights Watch: Well, I think Gary Sick has put it very well.

　　It is one of the worst in the region, if not in the entire world. On women's rights, for example, the male guardianship⁴ system requires that women get permission from their nearest male relative to do just about any business with the government, to do just about any kind of transaction in public life.

　　There's the issue of freedom of expression and association, which Gary just touched upon there. And there's actually been an increase since 2011 in the crackdown on freedom of expression and association, particularly directed at those who are expressing concern about extremism in the kingdom. Political participation⁵ is practically minimal⁶.

　　There's religious persecution⁷. Muslim minority sects⁸ in Saudi Arabia, like the Ismailis and the Shia, are persecuted⁹, and non-Muslim religions, if you belong to a non-Muslim religion, you are not allowed to practice your religion at all.

　　And then there's the whole issue of the justice system, which is based on a very strict and extreme interpretation¹⁰ of Islamic law. And, as Gary Sick just mentioned as well, the — Saudi Arabia's foreign policy is — is to support abusers of human rights around the region.

　　JUDY WOODRUFF: Well, let me ask both of you, starting with you, Gary Sick, what do you make of the fact that we're told that what President Obama did in his conversation — granted, it was a short one — with the new king today was to raise broadly the issue of human rights, but not to bring up any specific instances, like this blogger?

　　GARY SICK: You know, if it's a short — I wish they had had more time to talk, because I think there's a lot of things that they really need to talk about very much.

　　I can understand the president's interest in dealing¹¹ with the issues of, what do we do about the Iranian negotiations¹²? How do we work out our differences over Syria? What about our differences of opinion with regard to Egypt? All of those are very serious issues.

　　But, you know, I think, for all of us who really care about this, it really is important, especially with the blogger case. I mean, this is so public and so obvious. And it's such a complete travesty¹³ of justice, that you wish that U.S. officials would in fact put that higher up on their priority list.

　　JUDY WOODRUFF: Tom Porteous, should the president have made more of a specific issue of that today?

　　TOM PORTEOUS: Yes, of course he should have. There are plenty of other issues and individual issues that he could have raised.

　　I mean, the president said in that clip just now that he found that steady, consistent pressure was effective. Well, I mean, there's very little to show for any steady, consistent pressure, even if there has been from the United States. The fact is that the United States has never really pushed Saudi Arabia, except in a very sort of broad rhetorical or cosmetic¹⁴ way.

　　And that's mainly for commercial reasons. The stakes are enormous for, you know, various sectors¹⁵ of the defense¹⁶ and security and energy industries in the United States. But when it comes to security, it's — you know, the United States really does need to ask whether its current relationship with Saudi Arabia is well-served, whether its interests are well-served by its current relationship with Saudi Arabia.

　　JUDY WOODRUFF: You mean despite — you mean despite the human rights record?

　　TOM PORTEOUS: Well, I mean, that the human rights record and the security record are extremely linked. I don't think that you can disassociate the two, and I think for two reasons. One is that…

　　JUDY WOODRUFF: Well, let me — I just want to go back to Gary, Gary Sick, at this point.

　　Is it possible for the administration to put more pressure, to bring this issue up more frequently and to get something positive to get movement in return?

　　GARY SICK: Well, first, to be fair, it's simply a fact that we have very, very limited pressure, leverage¹⁷ that we can bring to bear to really change Saudi behavior.

　　And the one thing that I'm looking at that I think is really most significant is that — that Saudi Arabia is facing an almost perfect storm of international problems right now, with the drop in oil prices, with their relations with Bahrain and with Iraq, which are bad, and the Syrian thing, which has gone very badly for them, the need to keep pumping money into Egypt to keep them alive, and then, on their southern border, they have got the near failed state collapse¹⁸ of Yemen.

　　And these are major issues, many of which are actually — and especially the ISIS threat, which is pointed¹⁹ directly at their legitimacy²⁰ and at their heart — that is their own ideology²¹ coming back to them. And they simply cannot hide from that.

　　And so they're going to have to face the fact that their own ideology, their own religious beliefs are in fact being repackaged abroad and brought back to strike right at their very heart. And that's something which I think has got to impress them, and which, if you're going to try to change their point of view, that's one place where you should start.

　　JUDY WOODRUFF: Tom Porteous, do you think there's any reason to believe the Saudis will pull back on some of these drastic human rights abuses that they have been accused of?

　　TOM PORTEOUS: I think they're going to have to in the long run if they're going to survive.

　　Saudi Arabia faces a choice between political reform and greater respect for human rights, or being overwhelmed by the sort of militancy²² and intolerance and extremism that it has largely helped to create, as Gary Sick pointed out.

　　And from the United States' point of view, it does need to convince the Saudi Arabians of that. And, certainly, I don't think that an effective way of countering extremism and terrorism in the region is to be so closely aligned²³ with an authoritarian²⁴ government which has in the past and continues to promote an ideology of sectarianism and intolerance in the region.

　　JUDY WOODRUFF: Well, we do hear you both.

　　Tom Porteous with Human Rights Watch, Gary Sick at Columbia University, gentlemen, we thank you both.

　　GARY SICK: Thank you, Judy.

1 Ford   

n.浅滩，水浅可涉处；v.涉水，涉过

参考例句：

• They were guarding the bridge,so we forded the river.他们驻守在那座桥上，所以我们只能涉水过河。
• If you decide to ford a stream,be extremely careful.如果已决定要涉过小溪，必须极度小心。

2 enumerated   

v.列举，枚举，数( enumerate的过去式和过去分词 )

参考例句：

• A spokesperson enumerated the strikers' demands. 发言人列数罢工者的要求。 来自《简明英汉词典》
• He enumerated the capitals of the 50 states. 他列举了50个州的首府。 来自《现代汉英综合大词典》

3 dissent   

n./v.不同意，持异议

参考例句：

• It is too late now to make any dissent.现在提出异议太晚了。
• He felt her shoulders gave a wriggle of dissent.他感到她的肩膀因为不同意而动了一下。

4 guardianship   

n. 监护, 保护, 守护

参考例句：

• They had to employ the English language in face of the jealous guardianship of Britain. 他们不得不在英国疑忌重重的监护下使用英文。
• You want Marion to set aside her legal guardianship and give you Honoria. 你要马丽恩放弃她的法定监护人资格，把霍诺丽娅交给你。

5 participation   

n.参与，参加，分享

参考例句：

• Some of the magic tricks called for audience participation.有些魔术要求有观众的参与。
• The scheme aims to encourage increased participation in sporting activities.这个方案旨在鼓励大众更多地参与体育活动。

6 minimal   

adj.尽可能少的，最小的

参考例句：

• They referred to this kind of art as minimal art.他们把这种艺术叫微型艺术。
• I stayed with friends, so my expenses were minimal.我住在朋友家，所以我的花费很小。

7 persecution   

n. 迫害,烦扰

参考例句：

• He had fled from France at the time of the persecution. 他在大迫害时期逃离了法国。
• Their persecution only serves to arouse the opposition of the people. 他们的迫害只激起人民对他们的反抗。

8 sects   

n.宗派，教派( sect的名词复数 )

参考例句：

• Members of these sects are ruthlessly persecuted and suppressed. 这些教派的成员遭到了残酷的迫害和镇压。 来自《简明英汉词典》
• He had subdued the religious sects, cleaned up Saigon. 他压服了宗教派别，刷新了西贡的面貌。 来自辞典例句

9 persecuted   

（尤指宗教或政治信仰的）迫害(~sb. for sth.)( persecute的过去式和过去分词 )； 烦扰，困扰或骚扰某人

参考例句：

• Throughout history, people have been persecuted for their religious beliefs. 人们因宗教信仰而受迫害的情况贯穿了整个历史。
• Members of these sects are ruthlessly persecuted and suppressed. 这些教派的成员遭到了残酷的迫害和镇压。

10 interpretation   

n.解释，说明，描述；艺术处理

参考例句：

• His statement admits of one interpretation only.他的话只有一种解释。
• Analysis and interpretation is a very personal thing.分析与说明是个很主观的事情。

11 dealing   

n.经商方法，待人态度

参考例句：

• This store has an excellent reputation for fair dealing.该商店因买卖公道而享有极高的声誉。
• His fair dealing earned our confidence.他的诚实的行为获得我们的信任。

12 negotiations   

协商( negotiation的名词复数 )； 谈判； 完成（难事）； 通过

参考例句：

• negotiations for a durable peace 为持久和平而进行的谈判
• Negotiations have failed to establish any middle ground. 谈判未能达成任何妥协。

13 travesty   

n.歪曲，嘲弄，滑稽化

参考例句：

• The trial was a travesty of justice.这次审判嘲弄了法律的公正性。
• The play was,in their view,a travesty of the truth.这个剧本在他们看来是对事实的歪曲。

14 cosmetic   

n.化妆品；adj.化妆用的；装门面的；装饰性的

参考例句：

• These changes are purely cosmetic.这些改变纯粹是装饰门面。
• Laughter is the best cosmetic,so grin and wear it!微笑是最好的化妆品，所以请尽情微笑吧！

15 sectors   

n.部门( sector的名词复数 )；领域；防御地区；扇形

参考例句：

• Berlin was divided into four sectors after the war. 战后柏林分成了4 个区。 来自《简明英汉词典》
• Industry and agriculture are the two important sectors of the national economy. 工业和农业是国民经济的两个重要部门。 来自《现代汉英综合大词典》

16 defense   

n.防御，保卫；[pl.]防务工事；辩护，答辩

参考例句：

• The accused has the right to defense.被告人有权获得辩护。
• The war has impacted the area with military and defense workers.战争使那个地区挤满了军队和防御工程人员。

17 leverage   

n.力量，影响；杠杆作用，杠杆的力量

参考例句：

• We'll have to use leverage to move this huge rock.我们不得不借助杠杆之力来移动这块巨石。
• He failed in the project because he could gain no leverage. 因为他没有影响力，他的计划失败了。

18 collapse   

vi.累倒；昏倒；倒塌；塌陷

参考例句：

• The country's economy is on the verge of collapse.国家的经济已到了崩溃的边缘。
• The engineer made a complete diagnosis of the bridge's collapse.工程师对桥的倒塌做了一次彻底的调查分析。

19 pointed   

adj.尖的，直截了当的

参考例句：

• He gave me a very sharp pointed pencil.他给我一支削得非常尖的铅笔。
• She wished to show Mrs.John Dashwood by this pointed invitation to her brother.她想通过对达茨伍德夫人提出直截了当的邀请向她的哥哥表示出来。

20 legitimacy   

n.合法，正当

参考例句：

• The newspaper was directly challenging the government's legitimacy.报纸直接质疑政府的合法性。
• Managing from the top down,we operate with full legitimacy.我们进行由上而下的管理有充分的合法性。

21 ideology   

n.意识形态，(政治或社会的)思想意识

参考例句：

• The ideology has great influence in the world.这种思想体系在世界上有很大的影响。
• The ideal is to strike a medium between ideology and inspiration.我的理想是在意识思想和灵感鼓动之间找到一个折衷。

22 militancy   

n.warlike behavior or tendency

参考例句：

• Full of militancy and revolutionary ardour, the people of all nationalities in the country are working hard for the realization of the four modernizations. 全国各族人民意气风发， 斗志昂扬，为实现四个现代化而奋战。
• The seniority system is another factor that leads to union militancy. 排资论辈制度也是导致工会好斗争的另一因素。

23 aligned   

adj.对齐的，均衡的

参考例句：

• Make sure the shelf is aligned with the top of the cupboard.务必使搁架与橱柜顶端对齐。

24 authoritarian   

n./adj.专制(的)，专制主义者，独裁主义者

参考例句：

• Foreign diplomats suspect him of authoritarian tendencies.各国外交官怀疑他有着独裁主义倾向。
• The authoritarian policy wasn't proved to be a success.独裁主义的政策证明并不成功。